Trial Discussion Thread #34 - 14.05.06 Day 27

[Val1]

Missing the sound of one shot is not such a big thing in the scale of things ,witnesses in cases like this regularly misremember the exact number of shots but their testimony on the whole is still the most credible and I doubt very much the judge will discount it for that reason.
In any event whilst thinking about it maybe there were two sets of shots .I would like to know exactly how many bullets were left in the magazine .For all I know he could have shot out of the window to scare Reeva and had the casings removed with the phone that vanished or maybe he attempted to flush them down a toilet ,who knows really .
I will be listening very carefully to the closing arguments before making my mind up on this .

Iirc, a bullet had been removed from the chamber but the magazine had also been removed then put back in during that whole VR and Motha episode... no mention of how large the magazine was that I picked up on. Seemed kinda counter productive imo to put the magazine back in if the tech had been making the gun "safe"...

 

[sleuth-d-]

If you agree that OP is 1.23 metres on his stumps, can you convert this to feet for me please?

i think you are confusing the height measured from the ground to his shoulders, whilst on his stumps.

 

[Feynman]

But again Mrs. VDM heard these same cries and thought it was a woman. She had to be corrected. So the prosecution witness gave us two things: a. He can potentially sound like a woman when under duress and b. his crying was low enough that his pitch and voice could be correctly identified by someone close or someone who'd heard him speak before. Their defense is that the screaming before the second set of bangs was OP and the other witnesses thought it was a woman. Still has not been disproven.

But remember vdM heard an hour's worth of "fighting noises", off and on, from the "voice of a woman". It's pretty natural for her then to associate the crying sounds with what she had previously heard some minutes before.

 

[lithgow1]

Yep, she is an avid OP fan, but it doesn't seem to stop her making herself look stupid. But she is not alone as we are reminded occasionally.

Oh and another one - a few hours ago Robyn Curnow was asked about this Kim Myers issue and she said that there had been no response whatsoever from the Pistorius camp about it. If that was live, and it looked it was, she was either very uninformed for someone there or 'avoiding the truth' shall we say. Both Pistorius' lawyer and OP himself had statements out for a couple of hours at least, including Pistorius' endearing 'I hold the door open but they won't look me in the eye' or whatever exact weasely words it was he said.

 

[liesbeth]

Friday, 7 March 2014 Session 5 Oscar Pistorius trial

Time:From 20:00

Baba says Nhlengethwa called and reported gunshots.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZXV84kVWKI

 

[katydid23]

...but he didn't.

Where did you hear this?

I don't think that has been proven.

 

[Giles]

i think you are confusing the height measured from the ground to his shoulders, whilst on his stumps.

Yes, I agree. OP's height on stumps is 1.55m (5' 1").

 

[steveml]

i think you are confusing the height measured from the ground to his shoulders, whilst on his stumps.

Yes, thanks - I think that was mentioned in the trial.

My apologies if I've made anybody believe that he is a foot less than he really is. The same principle still applies regarding his inability to balance whilst stationary, and everything contained within my post.

 

[katydid23]

Yes, thanks - I think that was mentioned in the trial.

My apologies if I've made anybody believe that he is a foot less than he really is. The same principle still applies regarding his inability to balance whilst stationary, and everything contained within my post.

So, given that he was so unstable and vulnerable, while on his stumps, why would he run down that dark hallway on them, towards unknown intruders?

That seems very unlikely. It only took a minute or 2 to pull his legs on. Why wouldn't he do that if he planned to confront armed invaders?

 

[steveml]

I don't think that has been proven.

That goes for a lot of things I'm afraid.

My stance is to look at the probability as we only have OP's testimony regarding the happenings inside the house.

 

[BritsKate]

That means I've NEVER heard of them. Ever.

That's what that means.

Okay. Just wanted to make certain I wasn't missing a point you were making since you seemed emphatic.

 

[liesbeth]

Friday, 7 March 2014 Session 5 Oscar Pistorius trial

Time:From 20:00

Baba says Nhlengethwa called and reported gunshots.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZXV84kVWKI

Oscar Pistorius Trial: Tuesday 6 May 2014, Session 1

Time: From 54:50
Time: From 1:05:20

Mr. N says at the time when he made the call he had not heard gunshots.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVh9WQES2qI

Edit to add:In Roux's cross of Baba, Roux never disputes the fact that Mr N reported the gunshots.

Monday, 10 March Session 1 @ 14:00 he just breezes past Mr N's call.

Will someone just gently point out if this has been discussed and I'm repeating old news? I'm pages and pages behind in this thread. Thank you in advance.

 

[katydid23]

That goes for a lot of things I'm afraid.

My stance is to look at the probability as we only have OP's testimony regarding the happenings inside the house.

BBM --Right, exactly.

It is the 'probability' that makes me doubt his version of the story. If he was really planning to protect Reeva in the middle of the night, by confronting armed invaders, by himself, is he going to do that on his stumps? :waitasec:

 

[lithgow1]

So, given that he was so unstable and vulnerable, while on his stumps, why would he run down that dark hallway on them, towards unknown intruders?

That seems very unlikely. It only took a minute or 2 to pull his legs on. Why wouldn't he do that if he planned to confront armed invaders?

I'd definitely put on legs to confront intruders with arms.

Sorry, I know it's no joking matter but it's been a long day. .)

 

[Mr Fossil]

I was going by the times on the phone records from Security's landline and cell phone.

But you may be right about Dr Stipp - maybe I'm confusing him with Johnson. It was Johnson and Burger who heard the second bangshots after they got off the phone with security (and went back to bed - didn't call back after they heard those). Johnson's phone call was at 3:16 and lasted 58 seconds. I think that's how the 3:17 time was nailed down.

So mrs N heard one bangshot and then help help help and then called security at 3:16 and change (IIRC)

This is certainly what Johnson testified but his call time was his recollection of his own call billing record. He's very specific about the 58 second duration but do we really know that the call was at exactly 3:16? I don't think his actual phone records were provided but I'd be surprised if the prosecution hadn't checked them out before he gave his evidence. On the other hand, if he's not with Vodacom how do we know that his provider's clock is in sync with the other call times provided from Vodacom call records?

What bothers me more is that if we accept Annette Stipp's and Estelle van der Merwe's evidence that the first shots were at about 3am, there's about 15 minutes before OP breaks down the toilet door and a further few minutes before he moves Reeva, during which time she has to still be alive according to his story and for the arterial spurts to have occurred. This time period for her to live after the last gun shot (if this is what the first bangs were) and him moving her seems unlikely according to the pathologist's evidence.

 

[jay-jay]

I would like to know why free-range Clarice was permitted to wander into the spare room (whose location and contents are part of the crime scene Exhibit TT from Album 9) unescorted -- that's right all alone, while Amy was picking dress attire under watchful police eyes.

Oh, you've reminded me, thanks for that .. what was she doing in that spare room? (this was a separate thing to the towel cupboard, I'm presuming?) .. how does she know the layout of this house so well?

 

[Val1]

BBM

Coincidence or not, I think it takes a lot of guts to do what they did in court today.

It would be interesting to know how many women would be prepared to do that in a live court session, if they didn't really believe it to be true.

As it was so forcefully expressed on many occasions with regard to the PT witnesses...they have nothing to gain and why would they lie?

I don't see the parallel that you do... state witnesses, unless have something that the state can threaten them with(have seen no claims from Roux re that), have no reason to subject themselves to the rigors of trial(especially the first ever public televised one), whereas defence witnesses testifying on behalf of the "golden boy" of their country, who btw has been allowed to return to the scene of the crime and possibly intimidate or coerce whether through personal interference or family connections(which apparently reach into the high courts of the land let alone the financial upper echelon of society) could easily be seen as having something to gain.

 

[BritsKate]

I don't see the parallel that you do... state witnesses, unless have something that the state can threaten them with(have seen no claims from Roux re that), have no reason to subject themselves to the rigors of trial(especially the first ever public televised one), whereas defence witnesses testifying on behalf of the "golden boy" of their country, who btw has been allowed to return to the scene of the crime and possibly intimidate or coerce whether through personal interference or family connections(which apparently reach into the high courts of the land let alone the financial upper echelon of society) could easily be seen as having something to gain.

Notice none of their mobile phone numbers were read aloud? I did.

 

[DebinGA]

Unless, of course, he had his legs on.

Your description of his waddling is exactly why I don't believe his story, that he ran down that long dark hall towards danger, while on his stumps.

There are several reasons I think OP had his legs on, but the main one is that imo he's psychologically incapable of doing battle with Mr. Intruder on his stumps if his legs were readily available. IIRC OP testified to feeling his way/balancing using his left hand against the left wall of the dark passage, right hand holding his cocked gun. Oh, and screaming so Mr. Intruder would know exactly where he was at the time. Come on, does anyone believe OP did or would do that, because I certainly don't? Ditto arguing with Reeva on his stumps.

 

[shane13]

I want to know why both Standers (according to OP) told him that an ambulance was on the way when he first came down the stairs with Reeva. Clearly neither of them had called for one. OP said that he was told to bring Reeva to hospital instead of waiting for "him" (the 911 operator). So why would they tell OP that he needed to put Reeva down since an ambulance was on the way?

Yes indeed.
I have written here that their actions and inactions warrant criminal investiation. And bar investigation against the lawyer.

But, like investigating who took and was given the 5th phone at/from the crime scene. This did not happen and isn't going to happen... JMO