Trial Discussion Thread #34 - 14.05.06 Day 27

[lithgow1]

Don't know if this has been mentioned as yet but on the other forum I follow a poster has just said that a legal commentator on Sky said the defence ballistics expert was down for yesterday and then today and went on to make the suggestion that perhaps the no show meant he was no longer prepared to testify - that's the commentator said that, not the poster. Unconfirmed of course but interesting, especially given that two of the experts I heard today on that SA trial radio station made quite a point of Wolmerans being 'conspicuous in his absence'. Still carrying out tests perhaps, with Mr Dixon holding the measuring tape?

 

[steveml]

So, given that he was so unstable and vulnerable, while on his stumps, why would he run down that dark hallway on them, towards unknown intruders?

That seems very unlikely. It only took a minute or 2 to pull his legs on. Why wouldn't he do that if he planned to confront armed invaders?

I guess it's a case of looking at what was probably a spur of the moment panic situation. I don't think OP did what most people would have done in those circumstances. If we have to decide between the most likely scenario for OP not having time to put on his prosthesis which would it be?
Wouldn't it be more probable that he was in a rush to tackle an intruder rather than in a rush to kill Reeva?

If he had two minutes to put on his prosthesis and there was an intruder, in all probability they both would have been attacked.

OP was reckless in his actions, he should have got Reeva and himself away, and should have spoken to Reeva before doing anything.

...and yes, some people may well state the obvious that the outcome was absolutely devastating, but that doesn't alter the the likelihood of intention at that time.

 

[james83]

The most frustrating part of trying to figure out this mess is the lack of clarity regarding the time of the first set of sound's, i was reading back through the transcript of Annette Stipp's testimony and at the end during re-exam the following is said

Nel: How long was the time between the first shots and the second shots?.
March 24 at 12:11 PM

Stipp: There were moments, it felt like moments,
March 24 at 12:12 PM

Moment's between the 2 set's of sound's? ????, this is the witness who gave the idea that there was around 15 minutes.

 

[BritsKate]

Yep, and not only that but it's that old 'blame' thing again isn't it .. he appears (by what he said, i.e. 'How can you sleep at night?') to be blaming Reeva's friends and family for putting him in the predicament of being in court/being accused of murder. Nothing to do with him shooting at Reeva four times, oh no siree! :facepalm:

Seriously, it's a disturbingly popular mentality. All over the internet people are blaming her for having reported it.

Um. Dude is on trial for murder. Not jay walking.

 

[minor4th]

I am a little confused . Could you just outline where you have arrived at the time of 3.17 for the second shot sounds being ?

Do You believe the N's woke after the first bangs and then heard OP screaming for ten minutes but then didn't hear the second bangs ?

Johnson called security at 3:16 and the call lasted 58 seconds. Right after he hung up from that phone call he heard the second volley of bangshots.

I think the N's woke up to the last shot of the first sounds, and I think those were gunshots. I am uncertain exactly what time that was

 

[lithgow1]

Seriously, it's a disturbingly popular mentality. All over the internet people are blaming her for having reported it.

Um. Dude is on trial for murder. Not jay walking.

I saw a few of those comments - 'she wants her five minutes of fame', 'what's so sinister about that', 'she's probably making it up', 'just had to get her name in the paper' etc. I truly don't get people like that but am glad I only come across them in this online world, not the real life one.

 

[BritsKate]

The most frustrating part of trying to figure out this mess is the lack of clarity regarding the time of the first set of sound's, i was reading back through the transcript of Annette Stipp's testimony and at the end during re-exam the following is said

Nel: How long was the time between the first shots and the second shots?.
March 24 at 12:11 PM

Stipp: There were moments, it felt like moments,
March 24 at 12:12 PM

Moment's between the 2 set's of sound's? ????, this is the witness who gave the idea that there was around 15 minutes.

It's been a long time since her testimony but this is one media report:

Stipp said she woke in the early hours with a bout of coughing and leaned over her husband to look at the time on his bedside clock. She noted it was 3.02am.

At that stage she heard a sudden loud noise, asked her husband about it -- he said it was gun shots. All the while they heard a woman screaming.
Her husband tried to call 10111 and couldn’t get through. As he tried to get dressed, Stipp saw that the clock registered 3.17am. She said the clock was not accurate, usually running three or four minutes fast. She then tried to make calls from her phone when they heard more shots.

http://www.enca.com/south-africa/oscar-trial-witness-recalls-terrifying-screams

 

[shane13]

Correct, m'lady. Oscar's phone records were provided by Vodacom. The police requested his phone records and were then provided with an extra phone record by Vodacom. That is how the police found out his phone was smuggled out of the crime scene.

BBM
That is in dispute--if only by me.
At the BH, Roux announced to the world that there is another phone taken from the crime scene and that "the defense has got it."

Upon redirect from Nel, Botha--who was leading the investigation at that PIT-- testified that Roux' revelation about another phone was the first time he had heard about its existence.

Anything related to the 5th phone esp. its data is in question as it has zero chain of custody. Standard jurisprudence for centuries should have seen its data ruled inadmissable. You can be sure that if PT had evidence with zero Chain of Custody, Roux would have insisted that it be disallowed.

 

[minor4th]

Burger and Johnson didn't call the Silverwoods security. So no, minor4th, they do not have the phone records of the people called by Burger and Johnson.

Ok - they have the records from Burger/Johnson cell phone providers. Johnson made them available.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

The most frustrating part of trying to figure out this mess is the lack of clarity regarding the time of the first set of sound's, i was reading back through the transcript of Annette Stipp's testimony and at the end during re-exam the following is said

Nel: How long was the time between the first shots and the second shots?.
March 24 at 12:11 PM

Stipp: There were moments, it felt like moments,
March 24 at 12:12 PM

Moment's between the 2 set's of sound's? ????, this is the witness who gave the idea that there was around 15 minutes.

Maybe she was slightly confused by the question and thought he was asking the gaps between the individual shots that she heard,not the time span between the two sets of shots ?
Bearing in mind she was specific on the time she awoke by her clock and the time she heard the last ones ,the time she listened to screaming .
It can't have been moments because they went on the small balcony first and then moved to the other larger balcony then came back inside before noticing the clock at 3.17 ( which would have actually been 3.13 or 3.14 ) and then immediately after heard the last set of shot sounds .

 

[Noisy Fan]

If the current evidence from the both the PT and DT expert witnesses correct then with the above scenario I'm left holding a mental picture that I find so very hard to believe. Much harder than believing OP screamed like a woman.

I have to imagine that OP was arguing with Reeva whilst on his stumps - that's a whole 4ft tall, for a guy that supposedly likes to be in control and domineering. Rather than steadily moving down the corridor to maintain his balance as he would be in an intruder situation, he's running after Reeva in a waddling fashion through the bedroom, along the corridor and into the bathroom, whilst trying to remain upright. Whilst doing this he has to hope that neither Reeva stops running or he stops waddling, as if he has to stop without anything for balance he simply falls over. He also has to make sure that he doesn't come into contact with Reeva as again, he'll lose balance and his best laid plan will be scuppered as he lies on the floor.

He can't push or move Reeva anywhere, as guess what...he'd fall over. Once he stops moving he has to lean on something, that is a simple fact. It then would become necessary for him to request that Reeva take herself into the toilet, or wait while he uses her for balance, and then follow her into the toilet. At any time from wherever the argument started, Reeva, who is quite an athletic girl herself, could move her hip to the side and send OP tumbling. A simple push with one hand would do it

Now, it may be difficult to imagine OP screaming in a high octave, but if I'm thinking in terms of probability, the threatening but waddling OP is gonna come second every single time.

The waddling explanation isn't meant to be funny - it's realism.

Once you get over this it helps to understand how ridiculous this scenario appears.

Would he have better balance if he was on his knees?

 

[DebinGA]

...If he had two minutes to put on his prosthesis and there was an intruder, in all probability they both would have been attacked.

RSBM

Steve, please forgive the snip, but it reminded me of a delicious moment during Nel's cross of OP. Nel accused OP of padding the list of things he supposedly did during the time Reeva had to have slipped away to the bathroom. Immediately, OP spoke up, reminding Nel in a "gotcha" tone that Samantha Taylor testified that it took 4 min. for him to put on his legs but actually he could do it in 30 sec., which, he volunteered, he'd just demonstrated to m'lady during the break. hahahaha

 

[steveml]

I don't see the parallel that you do... state witnesses, unless have something that the state can threaten them with(have seen no claims from Roux re that), have no reason to subject themselves to the rigors of trial(especially the first ever public televised one), whereas defence witnesses testifying on behalf of the "golden boy" of their country, who btw has been allowed to return to the scene of the crime and possibly intimidate or coerce whether through personal interference or family connections(which apparently reach into the high courts of the land let alone the financial upper echelon of society) could easily be seen as having something to gain.

I guess that depends on how you want a trial, and more specifically justice, to operate.

Do we want a society whereby people close to you, neighbours, family etc. can never give evidence because their views are considered worthless?

How many of us would want to ever be in a situation whereby we're accused of a crime that could incarcerate us for more years than necessary, yet people who could provide evidence were refused the chance to do so? Let's not forget, the witnesses standing for the DT are probably going to be hounded with hateful comments by many who have never met either Reeva or OP, and hadn't even heard of them until a few years ago. I think there's far more risk of vitriol for the defense witnesses than the prosecution witnesses in this trial. I can't speak for the public mood in SA though.

I get the impression that there weren't many people willing to be involved in this trial, and have to give enormous credit to those witnesses on both sides that have done so.

 

[steveml]

Would he have better balance if he was on his knees?

I honestly don't know the answer to that one.

 

[crasshopper]

Forgive me for butting in as this is slightly OT (only in that it's not keeping with current line of discussion), but this blogger nailed it for me. He's slightly off some of the details and it's just his opinion, but I couldn't agree more with his assessment.

http://phil51089.wordpress.com/2014/04/26/interesting-pistorius-timeline-as-offered-by-donmack/

Oh, and forgive me if this has already been posted. I'll have egg on my face, but I'm in between errands!

Thank you for sharing!

He made lots of great points. Many similar to some we've made here.
Oscar's version just doesn't make sense, his decisions that morning bely 'reason' or plausibility.

Could not help but chuckle at times, especially after this line

'Oh, I almost forgot – throughout all of this he is screaming like a woman, except when he goes onto the balcony to shout for help in a man’s voice'

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Johnson called security at 3:16 and the call lasted 58 seconds. Right after he hung up from that phone call he heard the second volley of bangshots.

I think the N's woke up to the last shot of the first sounds, and I think those were gunshots. I am uncertain exactly what time that was

I thought Johnson was the one that had the wrong number for security ,it was for his old property ? Is this the call there is a record of ,I wasn't sure he got through . He did definitely hear the second set of shots after this phone attempt.

 

[DebinGA]

Roux ballistics expert "Wollie Wolmarans "expertise" list:

http://www.ballisticforensic.co.za/expertise.html

Anyone see anything resembling "sound expert" on there?

 

[Viper]

i think you are confusing the height measured from the ground to his shoulders, whilst on his stumps.

He's probably not confused.

Dixon didn't get confused when he hired a tiny man to pose as OP in the bathroom photos. That was deliberate. Just like the woman being asked to scream in court today. It comes from desperation, IMO.

 

[jay-jay]

Forgive me for butting in as this is slightly OT (only in that it's not keeping with current line of discussion), but this blogger nailed it for me. He's slightly off some of the details and it's just his opinion, but I couldn't agree more with his assessment.

http://phil51089.wordpress.com/2014/04/26/interesting-pistorius-timeline-as-offered-by-donmack/

Oh, and forgive me if this has already been posted. I'll have egg on my face, but I'm in between errands!

Excellent link, TD .. thanks for that .. nails it for me too, and I wouldn't mind betting that this is basically what the judge will use when coming to a decision about a conviction. I very much doubt whether she will be sitting there trying to work out which ear witness heard what and when, and which fit which story .. she will just take a general overview of the ridiculousness of OP's story, just in the exact way has been described in that link.

 

[Feynman]

Its dicey to assert what a nation thinks or believes about anything. From what I've been reading, South Africans when interviewed almost universally expressed that they understood the fear OP has testified about.

There was a great article back in March about an American journalist who witnessed for himself what he describes as the almost clinical paranoia of SA's middle class about home invasions and breakins, no matter how gated and secure their homes, and no matter the "rape doors" securing their bedrooms, etc.

That generalized paranoia made me see OP's story in a different light, and yep, made it far more believable.

And, personally, I thought the Standers were entirely credible. I bet the judge did too, witness her note-taking during their time on the stand. This case is about state of mind. It is telling how clearly devastated OP was minutes after he killed her.

And its interesting indeed that the neighbors closest to his house did NOT hear a woman screaming.

True, but they didn't hear much of anything.