Trial Discussion Thread #34 - 14.05.06 Day 27

[Val1]

OP's bedroom balcony is on the right side of his house, toward the rear - not the front.

http://www.demotix.com/photo/1815788/oscar-pistorius-spend-another-night-jail

 

[steveml]

Perhaps I'm missing something here, but I've been puzzling over your comment BBM.

What did these witnesses do that required "guts"? As far as I can make out, they simply attempted an approximate rendering of sounds they heard. What's so brave about that? And why does it make a difference that they are women?

I think it took guts.

It doesn't make a difference if they are women. Men can presumably do it as well.

 

[Fuskier]

BBM - I'd like to know what right non-family members thought they had to remove Reeva's private and personal belongings from the scene instead of handing them straight over to the police. They should be charged with crime interference. How dare they take Reeva's bag when she had just been murdered and the whole place was a crime scene. Nothing should have been taken without the express permission and acknowledgement of a senior police officer - and even then, why on earth would a police officer say 'No problem. Of course you can take the deceased's bag'??

My thoughts as well. IMO major fault of the SA police that Ms. Stander & Pistorious's sister were 'permitted' to remove Reeva's personal handbag away from the crime scene and take personal possession of it. Also that pistorious's brother Carl & Oldwage being 'permitted' to go through the safe and enter the crime scene, etc.

Ironically, it is the DT which claim that the SA police tampered with the crime scene. BUT it appears that friends & family of Pistorious have been 'permitted' to do exactly that!

Hopefully the South African police will learn from this and improve their management of securing/sealing the crime scene. IMHO.

 

[Gryffindor]

Question for anyone who remembers: Did Oscar say he screamed help, help, help from the sliding door/balcony or did he yell that from the open bathroom window?

Balcony, I'm sure x

 

[Apollo]

I think it took guts.

It doesn't make a difference if they are women. Men can presumably do it as well.

Then why didn't Mr. N do it when he testified?

 

[lithgow1]

Exactly - so it must be that the ones identifying it as a woman screaming are mistaken. Right?

Wrong I think - the way I see it is the people who testified today heard Pistorius crying, wailing whatever AFTER Reeva Steenkamp was dead or dying. They said it was definitely a man. The state witnesses, who were awake BEFORE any of today's, claim to have heard both RS and OP - her before the shooting, him after. That's why most of the commentators (bar Kelly Phelps) are saying Nel spent little time on them because everything they heard was after the fact so he isn't really concerned with their testimony.

 

[aoibhinn]

Apologies if this has been discussed. I'm still catching up.

Mr. Baba testified that Dr. Stipp and a neighbor called and both reported gunshots. Was Mr. Nhlengethwa the neighbor who reported the gunshots? If not there must be another neighbor who called security.

I had a feeling that it was reported somewhere That Mr. Nhlengethwa called ecrity and reported gunshots. I didn't know who he was at the time. As Nel didn't press him on the matter, perhaps it's untrue. I pulled this from Juror13 blog jut before the two week break.

Phone records - Calls to security on 14th Feb

Silverwood Security land line:

3:15:51am - Dr. Stipp (army training - assult rifle & pistol). Reported gunshots.
3:16:16am - Mr Nhlengethwa. No answer.
3:16:36am - Mr Nhlengethwa. Reported gunshots (perhaps on behalf of his wife?).

Security other:

3:16am - Mr. Johnson (gun owner). Heard gunshots - backed up by security phone records.

Gunshots/bangs & screams reported to security on 14th Feb

1:56am - Mrs. van der Merwe (very loud woman's voice over an hour)

3:00am (approx) - Mrs. van der Merwe (gunshots/bangs)
3:00am (shortly after)- Security guard on bike. (gunshots)
3:00am (approx) - Mrs. Burger (gunshots)
3:00am (approx) - Mr. Johnson (gunshots)
3:04am - Dr. Stipp. (gunshots)
3:04am - Mrs. Stipp (gunshots)
3:16am (before) - Mr Nhlengethwa (gunshots)

 

[Gryffindor]

Okay. Just wanted to make certain I wasn't missing a point you were making since you seemed emphatic.

No probs. You're welcome

 

[lithgow1]

Question for anyone who remembers: Did Oscar say he screamed help, help, help from the sliding door/balcony or did he yell that from the open bathroom window?

Balcony IIRC. That's why the placement of the fans and duvet etc could be problematic for him.

 

[Cherwell]

I think it took guts.

It doesn't make a difference if they are women. Men can presumably do it as well.

What took guts? Making a noise, or testifying in court? I really don't understand what you mean here.

I referred to your words "how many women would be prepared to do that", you could have said "how many people" but you specified women.

 

[BritsKate]

With regard to the blog link, it just shows how easy it is to make so few things seem like so many.

Here it is without the fudge...

OP got up, brought the fans in, covered a blue light, heard a noise, didn't see that Reeva had left the room, got his gun and went to the bathroom.

You can mention turning around at five different angles, feeling around the bedroom, not seeing this, not seeing that etc. etc. At the end of the day it's over-elaborating a few actions to make them appear inconceivable.

I've been in a room in daylight and somebody's left the room without me even knowing it. I bet we all have. Maybe it was something I said tho?

Either OP should have checked to see if Reeva was in the bed and didn't, or it's all a complete lie and he stalked after Reeva because he wanted to kill her.

Whichever you choose to believe I can't see how it was elaborate. An intruder killing isn't elaborate, and a spur of the moment rage killing certainly isn't.

Out of curiosity, did you whisper for them to get down and call the police? Did you scream for them to get down and call the police? Did they not respond and did you later shoot them? I don't mean to be snarky but each of us could rip one line out of Oscar's 'version', insert our experience and wisdom, and attempt to 'reason' his actions...but doing so often falls apart on the larger scale. So yes, someone could certainly leave the room without me noticing. But I wouldn't fire 4 bullets into a door when I didn't even have verbal confirmation the person who 'disappeared' had heard me to call police. (And as that blogger pointed out, Oscar still never called police himself.)

Words like elaborate are subjective in my opinion. For some, elaborate is simply that he had a working defence almost immediately after committing murder. For others it can only be a manifesto cateloguing his intention to murder Reeva, 3 years before they met, in triplicate, double spaced. Often, it is this subjectivity that leads to confusion on legal definitions.

The simple fact is most people find his account, at best, baffling. His account did change from previous statements. His credibility was damaged due to his testimony. Various witnesses appear to have heard variations of an altercation that began before Oscar shot/broke the door and the defence have yet to explain why there was yelling for approximately 15 minutes before Oscar broke down the door, why it took nearly 20 minutes after 'shooting' Reeva to call netcare, why Oscar wanted to move Reeva before netcare told him to, and how Reeva was still alive long enough to leave arterial spray below the stairs. There is no need to introduce a duvet, another fan, jeans, a blue light, wood moving, a door slamming, a window slamming open against a frame or a window sliding open to still not be able to make sense of Oscar's version...so, no over-elaborating is even necessary. It was simply to highlight how malleable Oscar's testimony was - and that was served up on a silver platter by the defendant himself.

All MOO

 

[Val1]

http://www.demotix.com/photo/1815788/oscar-pistorius-spend-another-night-jail

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/oscar-pistorius/10711566/Oscar-Pistorius-to-sell-house-where-he-shot-Reeva-to-cover-legal-fees.html

 

[Cherwell]

Question for anyone who remembers: Did Oscar say he screamed help, help, help from the sliding door/balcony or did he yell that from the open bathroom window?

He definitely said balcony. Although there may have been a later variation , but I definitely remember that it was balcony originally.

 

[Gryffindor]

Did you catch the testimony about Carice telling Frank to not even look inside the house?

it's bad enough that she barred Security guard Baba (who might have known CPR) from entering. Now she, a lawyer, is forbidding others from even looking in.
And if she knows OP well and were neighbors, she would know Frank was OP's manservant and house guest.

I thought it was "Mike" (neighbour) she referred to as peering in at the door and was uncomfortable with it as she wasn't sure who he was.

 

[Fuskier]

I really wonder what this man knows. Isn't it odd that when Oscar said he ran to the balcony to shout for help that he didn't call downstairs for Frank's help? Did he just plain forget about his houseboy/servant?? It doesn't fit into his story very well.

Agreed. IMO there are further questions here as it is alleged that Frank lived there and was there that night.

Why didn't Oscar call Frank for assistance?

There is something not right with Oscar's story here IMO. The Standers would be more sympathetic and useful to him?

 

[DebinGA]

Question for anyone who remembers: Did Oscar say he screamed help, help, help from the sliding door/balcony or did he yell that from the open bathroom window?

IIRC on the stand OP said he ran onto (or ran out onto) the balcony (after his shoulder-butting of wc door trip) and yelled for help 3x, still holding the cocked gun and on his stumps, then came back in, put gun on bed while he donned his legs, picked up cocked gun and returned to bathroom, finally fright-free enough to turn on the bathroom light. Just had to add that last bit. : )

 

[aoibhinn]

I don't think so. From the street: OP's bedroom balcony is on the right side of OP's house, OP's bathroom windows face toward the back, and the N's house is to the left of OP's, with the N's bedroom on the left side of N's house. I think.

You are correct. The only neighbours with a clear, unobstructed vista to OP's bedroom balcony and bathroom are the Stipps. Every other witness has several elements in between, both structural walls and interior partition walls.

 

[Val1]

Question for anyone who remembers: Did Oscar say he screamed help, help, help from the sliding door/balcony or did he yell that from the open bathroom window?

The bathroom window calls would have been the ones with the "intermingled" voices that the various witnesses testified to before the final "bangs", whereas the "help, help, help" calls would have been the ones that OP claimed to have made from the bedroom balcony after the shooting but apparently before he claims to have "broken down" the door to determine whether he'd killed an "intruder" or not.

 

[katydid23]

I guess it's a case of looking at what was probably a spur of the moment panic situation. I don't think OP did what most people would have done in those circumstances. If we have to decide between the most likely scenario for OP not having time to put on his prosthesis which would it be?
Wouldn't it be more probable that he was in a rush to tackle an intruder rather than in a rush to kill Reeva?

If he had two minutes to put on his prosthesis and there was an intruder, in all probability they both would have been attacked.

OP was reckless in his actions, he should have got Reeva and himself away, and should have spoken to Reeva before doing anything.

...and yes, some people may well state the obvious that the outcome was absolutely devastating, but that doesn't alter the the likelihood of intention at that time.

BBM

If it was a spur of the moment, panic situation, then the first thing he would do, is STRENGTHEN himself. If he cannot walk down the hall w/out balancing against the wall, then why would he try and confront intruders without his legs on? That makes zero sense to me.

I am half blind w/out my glasses on these days. if I heard a noise, and needed to investigate, I would garb my glock AND my glasses. Because w/out them on I would not be able to see my target.

How was he supposed to rush and tackle an intruder while on his stumps?

I disagree that if he took 2 minutes to put his legs on, it would mean they'd both be attacked. They were locked in the bedroom, with a loaded weapon. He was a wonderful marksman. He had his panic alarm and his cell phones and his weapon. And he would have been better off calling for immediate help and training his gun on the bedroom door. That was a much better tactical approach than running willy nilly down the dark hallway into unknown danger. If there had been intruders, he would have died right there, most likely.

None of his 'purported' actions make any sense to me. :waitasec:

 

[Val1]

Agreed. IMO there are further questions here as it is alleged that Frank lived there and was there that night.

Why didn't Oscar call Frank for assistance?

There is something not right with Oscar's story here IMO. The Standers would be more sympathetic and useful to him?

Perhaps the "poolboy"/gardener was the impetus for an argument at 2am? If RS was in the habit of hugging people instead of shaking their hand, perhaps OP walked in on a hug while RS was getting or cleaning up after her snack... didn't Frank live right off the kitchen?