Trial Discussion Thread #34 - 14.05.06 Day 27

[aoibhinn]

I have NEVER heard of those companies. Ever. Accurate mobile and landline telephone data is readily accessible by authorities.

Phone records are acquired from the relevant service provider, whoever they might be. They vary between countries, though some are international. Phone records are not retrieved from telephone masts. As in, you can't go to a mast and 'download' communications data from it. Telecoms use masts for data transfer, however, many companies may use any given mast.

 

[katydid23]

Johnson called security at 3:16 and the call lasted 58 seconds. Right after he hung up from that phone call he heard the second volley of bangshots.

I think the N's woke up to the last shot of the first sounds, and I think those were gunshots. I am uncertain exactly what time that was

Any idea why they didn't hear the cricket batshots? :waitasec:

 

[steveml]

I can see sense in much of that steve but I think you are doing the opposite and over-pruning a bit, particularly the 'got his gun and went to the bathroom'. In Pistorius' version 'went to the bathroom' has lots more trimmings - faster, slower, shouting, screaming, peering around corners, thinking and then not thinking etc etc. Plus I can't just get over his replies to Nel re the fans and LED light - it felt to me like he was determined to have never looked in her direction to the point where it just did not ring true.

I think you are also Australian? Remember The Castle? To me, though all that you say could be true, the 'vibe of the thing' is wrong. Not evidence I know but it's what accounted for my initial scepticism about his whole story.

I wish I was from Oz, I'm from sunny UK unfortunately

You're correct. I have pruned - specifically because I believe that things happened a lot quicker than have been imagined.

A while ago I demonstrated how the distance from the bedroom to the bathroom was that short it would take no more than approx. 7 seconds at normal walking pace. I added a few seconds on for OP's stumps and slower movement down the corridor though. I also remember people mentioning screaming during the shots could have continued for a considerable while. Once you realise that the shooting from start to finish was over in less that 4 seconds it puts an entirely different perspective on things. How many screams can you possibly squeeze into 4 seconds?

Every tiny detail is analyzed during trial and questioned time and time again. What happened in 20 seconds sounds more like it took 10 minutes.

With regard to OP's 'version' it's been detailed step by step because Nel wants it that way. A prosecutor hasn't got much chance of catching anybody out if he/she just accepts that they got from A to B in 10 seconds. OP's statement says exactly what happened from start to finish in a few paragraphs.

I agree with your suggestion regarding OP's testimony. He knows what Nel is trying to do without a doubt, and he's changed some things to avoid being proven wrong. This usually does more harm than good. I can sort of understand why he's doing this, but I don't agree with it. He won't just come out and say 'I didn't see Reeva leave the bedroom - you either believe me or you don't'.

You're being asked to prove that you didn't see someone. Which isn't as easy as it sounds.

 

[crasshopper]

Question for anyone who remembers: Did Oscar say he screamed help, help, help from the sliding door/balcony or did he yell that from the open bathroom window?

Pretty certain he said the balcony.

 

[Fuskier]

we have lived in a suburb of Los Angeles for 30 years. So we have always been paranoid about crime and/or home invasion. Understandably so. And we have a loaded Glock in the bedroom. [our kids are grown.]

But that doesn't mean I would shoot blindly through a bathroom door without verifying where my husband was at the time. That makes no sense, no matter how fearful I was about intruders.

As for OP being paranoid, that is hard for me to completely accept. He went to sleep with the sliding balcony doors open. He didn't bother to check that the ladders were put away. And he neglected to see if his home alarm was functioning for months. So how paranoid could he really have been?

I KNOW some paranoid people. They don't sleep with open sliding glass doors in the bedroom and forget to fix the alarm for months at a time. :waitasec:

Good point: "...As for OP being paranoid ... He went to sleep with the sliding balcony doors open. He didn't bother to check that the ladders were put away. And he neglected to see if his home alarm was functioning for months"

... and his live-in help, Frank, was there!

 

[aoibhinn]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/oscar-pistorius/10711566/Oscar-Pistorius-to-sell-house-where-he-shot-Reeva-to-cover-legal-fees.html

OPs house, with rooms labelled from plan, showing location of neighbouring properties.

ETA : See attachment

 

[katydid23]

Big difference between girlfriend and fiance...most people do not use the two interchangeably. I find it interesting and so did the neighbor as evidenced by their later conversation which he said "so this is the one?" I personally think he made it up and I think anyone wanting to bolster OP's case may do the same...want to show how much OP loved her and planned a future with her and so of course could have never killed her on purpose.
"

And they have bolstered that contention with the claim that he was selling his house and moving to Jburg bECAUSE of his love for Reeva.

The truth is his house was on the market since 2011, and he had been looking for house there before he even met her. :doh:

 

[crasshopper]

I had a feeling that it was reported somewhere That Mr. Nhlengethwa called ecrity and reported gunshots. I didn't know who he was at the time. As Nel didn't press him on the matter, perhaps it's untrue. I pulled this from Juror13 blog jut before the two week break.

Phone records - Calls to security on 14th Feb

Silverwood Security land line:

3:15:51am - Dr. Stipp (army training - assult rifle & pistol). Reported gunshots.
3:16:16am - Mr Nhlengethwa. No answer.
3:16:36am - Mr Nhlengethwa. Reported gunshots (perhaps on behalf of his wife?).

Security other:

3:16am - Mr. Johnson (gun owner). Heard gunshots - backed up by security phone records.

Gunshots/bangs & screams reported to security on 14th Feb

1:56am - Mrs. van der Merwe (very loud woman's voice over an hour)

3:00am (approx) - Mrs. van der Merwe (gunshots/bangs)
3:00am (shortly after)- Security guard on bike. (gunshots)
3:00am (approx) - Mrs. Burger (gunshots)
3:00am (approx) - Mr. Johnson (gunshots)
3:04am - Dr. Stipp. (gunshots)
3:04am - Mrs. Stipp (gunshots)
3:16am (before) - Mr Nhlengethwa (gunshots)

The prosecution could benefit from a large poster with the above timeline at closing imo.

 

[JuneBug67]

BBM

If it was a spur of the moment, panic situation, then the first thing he would do, is STRENGTHEN himself. If he cannot walk down the hall w/out balancing against the wall, then why would he try and confront intruders without his legs on? That makes zero sense to me.

I am half blind w/out my glasses on these days. if I heard a noise, and needed to investigate, I would garb my glock AND my glasses. Because w/out them on I would not be able to see my target.

How was he supposed to rush and tackle an intruder while on his stumps?

I disagree that if he took 2 minutes to put his legs on, it would mean they'd both be attacked. They were locked in the bedroom, with a loaded weapon. He was a wonderful marksman. He had his panic alarm and his cell phones and his weapon. And he would have been better off calling for immediate help and training his gun on the bedroom door. That was a much better tactical approach than running willy nilly down the dark hallway into unknown danger. If there had been intruders, he would have died right there, most likely.

None of his 'purported' actions make any sense to me. :waitasec:

Substituting our judgement safe behind our keyboards is in my mind terribly irresponsible. Of course there were other options that would have been better in retrospect. But if his story is true he feared an intruder in his EN SUITE BATHROOM. In his mind time was of the essence and and he had split seconds to make a decision. It makes perfect sense to me that he would not use two minutes to put on his legs when the 'intruder' was 10 seconds down a hallway. If he instinctively preferred confronting the intruder in the bathroom rather than having the intruder confront both he AND Reeva in the bedroom, well that makes split second sense to me too. He did what he did and while the outcome was horrible and heartbreaking and unnecessary people should really check their "it makes no sense!" thinking. Seen in the context of the circumstances, which were his circumstances and not ours, it had a certain tragic logic.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Sorry if this has been posted upthread.

Oscar Pistorius spoke to a friend of Reeva Steenkamp's in a "very sinister tone" Tuesday, asking her: "How can you sleep at night?" the friend's lawyer said.

Kim Myers found the "unwelcome approach ... extremely disturbing," lawyer Ian Levitt said, adding that the incident had been reported to the National Prosecuting Authority.

The athlete's spokeswoman did not immediately respond to a CNN request for comment.

The National Prosecuting Authority confirmed that it had received a report about the alleged incident but said it was legally powerless.

"In law we cannot get involved. The Myers family lawyer that made the report was advised to deal with the matter as they deem fit," said authority spokesman Nathi Mncube.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/05/06/world/africa/oscar-pistorius-trial/

 

[Val1]

If you agree that OP is 1.23 metres on his stumps, can you convert this to feet for me please?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/18/oscar-pistorius-not-wearing-prosthetic-legs-expert

This determined that his height while wearing the prosthetic limbs is 1.84 metres, compared with 1.55 metres on his stumps. His height-to-shoulder level is 1.56 metres with the prostheses and 1.23 metres without. His height to elbow level is 1.26 metres with the prostheses and 0.96 metres without.

1.55 m... = 155 cm divided by 2.5 = 62 in = 5'2".

 

[katydid23]

Exactly - so it must be that the ones identifying it as a woman screaming are mistaken. Right?

Either that, or they heard Reeva screaming?

 

[lithgow1]

I wish I was from Oz, I'm from sunny UK unfortunately

You're correct. I have pruned - specifically because I believe that things happened a lot quicker than have been imagined.

A while ago I demonstrated how the distance from the bedroom to the bathroom was that short it would take no more than approx. 7 seconds at normal walking pace. I added a few seconds on for OP's stumps and slower movement down the corridor though. I also remember people mentioning screaming during the shots could have continued for a considerable while. Once you realise that the shooting from start to finish was over in less that 4 seconds it puts an entirely different perspective on things. How many screams can you possibly squeeze into 4 seconds?

Every tiny detail is analyzed during trial and questioned time and time again. What happened in 20 seconds sounds more like it took 10 minutes.

With regard to OP's 'version' it's been detailed step by step because Nel wants it that way. A prosecutor hasn't got much chance of catching anybody out if he/she just accepts that they got from A to B in 10 seconds. OP's statement says exactly what happened from start to finish in a few paragraphs.

I agree with your suggestion regarding OP's testimony. He knows what Nel is trying to do without a doubt, and he's changed some things to avoid being proven wrong. This usually does more harm than good. I can sort of understand why he's doing this, but I don't agree with it. He won't just come out and say 'I didn't see Reeva leave the bedroom - you either believe me or you don't'.

You're being asked to prove that you didn't see someone. Which isn't as easy as it sounds.

Thanks for that. Re the screaming and the shots - I think it is more important the screaming leading up to the shots that witnesses were certain was a woman. I'm sure once he started firing the screams would have died away quickly for obvious reasons. Just out of interest, do you think he should get prison time for his actions that night and their consequences, even if it's not the rest of life most of us seem to think he deserves?

One thing I will say for the 'supporters' of OP on here - I often disagree with them but they are generally much more stable in their thinking than the ones on the other forum I read but don't comment on. One tonight was saying that since there was no intruder, how could he be found guilty of killing an imaginary person. Still shaking my head over that one.

 

[Karmady]

Substituting our judgement safe behind our keyboards is in my mind terribly irresponsible. Of course there were other options that would have been better in retrospect. But if his story is true he feared an intruder in his EN SUITE BATHROOM. In his mind time was of the essence and and he had split seconds to make a decision. It makes perfect sense to me that he would not use two minutes to put on his legs when the 'intruder' was 10 seconds down a hallway. If he instinctively preferred confronting the intruder in the bathroom rather than having the intruder confront both he AND Reeva in the bedroom, well that makes split second sense to me too. He did what he did and while the outcome was horrible and heartbreaking and unnecessary people should really check their "it makes no sense!" thinking. Seen in the context of the circumstances, which were his circumstances and not ours, it had a certain tragic logic.

I agree. It makes perfect sense to me. I still wonder whether it's true, but not because that part makes no sense. jmo

 

[Viper]

Balcony, I'm sure x

Just curious about the use of "x" in your post. Is that a reference to the text messages between OP and Reeva, a kiss? A kiss to Minor from you in your post?

 

[Cherwell]

OPs house, with rooms labelled from plan, showing location of neighbouring properties.

ETA : See attachment

You've made the same error as I did initially. The Stipps' house is the left hand one at the top. I've already corrected mine (posted earlier).

 

[JuneBug67]

Sorry if this has been posted upthread.

Oscar Pistorius spoke to a friend of Reeva Steenkamp's in a "very sinister tone" Tuesday, asking her: "How can you sleep at night?" the friend's lawyer said.

Kim Myers found the "unwelcome approach ... extremely disturbing," lawyer Ian Levitt said, adding that the incident had been reported to the National Prosecuting Authority.

The athlete's spokeswoman did not immediately respond to a CNN request for comment.

The National Prosecuting Authority confirmed that it had received a report about the alleged incident but said it was legally powerless.

"In law we cannot get involved. The Myers family lawyer that made the report was advised to deal with the matter as they deem fit," said authority spokesman Nathi Mncube.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/05/06/world/africa/oscar-pistorius-trial/

I think he probably did say it, and doing so was dumb and denying it dumber. But he clearly feels unfairly treated by Myers' past statements and the reasonable interpretation of this is a guilt trip and character judgement rather than a threat. I'd probably admire Myers more if she just let it roll off her rather than behave as if there is some fundamental human right not to be spoken to by Oscar Pistorius when she herself has spoken freely as she saw fit.

 

[lithgow1]

Substituting our judgement safe behind our keyboards is in my mind terribly irresponsible. Of course there were other options that would have been better in retrospect. But if his story is true he feared an intruder in his EN SUITE BATHROOM. In his mind time was of the essence and and he had split seconds to make a decision. It makes perfect sense to me that he would not use two minutes to put on his legs when the 'intruder' was 10 seconds down a hallway. If he instinctively preferred confronting the intruder in the bathroom rather than having the intruder confront both he AND Reeva in the bedroom, well that makes split second sense to me too. He did what he did and while the outcome was horrible and heartbreaking and unnecessary people should really check their "it makes no sense!" thinking. Seen in the context of the circumstances, which were his circumstances and not ours, it had a certain tragic logic.

Why should anyone check their 'it makes no sense!' thinking'? You say that and then jump straight into an interpretation of why Pistorius did what he did and what you think he was thinking. Fair enough if you want to take that approach but I'll stick to examining his actions more than his thought patterns (both will be considered by M'lady) and when I do that, well sorry but here it comes: 'it makes no sense!'.

 

[TorisMom003]

Substituting our judgement safe behind our keyboards is in my mind terribly irresponsible. Of course there were other options that would have been better in retrospect. But if his story is true he feared an intruder in his EN SUITE BATHROOM. In his mind time was of the essence and and he had split seconds to make a decision. It makes perfect sense to me that he would not use two minutes to put on his legs when the 'intruder' was 10 seconds down a hallway. If he instinctively preferred confronting the intruder in the bathroom rather than having the intruder confront both he AND Reeva in the bedroom, well that makes split second sense to me too. He did what he did and while the outcome was horrible and heartbreaking and unnecessary people should really check their "it makes no sense!" thinking. Seen in the context of the circumstances, which were his circumstances and not ours, it had a certain tragic logic.

Unless of course it is all a lie and he knew exactly who was in the toilet room. Which, by the way, is what he is on trial for. OP also has lied on the stand about numerous things, so why should he be given the benefit of the doubt that anything he says is the truth?

Having someone tell others that they should "check their it makes no sense thinking" is really not the best way to get people to stop and think about the rest of a post, IMO.

MOO

 

[JudgeJudi]

LOL how to prove OP screams like a woman........get 2 women to scream in court

On the previous thread I dared the defence to have their ear witnesses scream in court. Guess I should have double dared them.