Trial Discussion Thread #34 - 14.05.06 Day 27

[ColonelMustard]

With all due respect, I'm aware of OP's privileged life and home AND I find it believable that he still felt paranoid...witness his past behavior fearing intruders at his gated home.

Again with all due respect, no, I actually don't accept that a few posters here who live where this case took place necessarily have a better sense of what an entire nation is thinking or believing just because they live there, anymore than I believe my own views on cases represent the US.

I prefer to read/listen and evaluate for myself, and I trust my own research skills, logic, and years now of following trials, posting and participating here.

I can understand if some or many SA's or others anywhere else "struggle" to believe OP's account. I don't believe parts of it either. I just don't view every witness and every piece of evidence through an a priori assumption of guilt and bad character. JMO.

I don't feel that defense witnesses are acting from places of guilt or bad character. While I don't believe them, it's not because I think they are morally/ethically corrupt.

Throughout this trial I've asked myself: "In all honesty, CM, what would you have done in such a situation?" Maybe not anything that different than what they have.

If I was really close to a brother I loved, or to a neighbor I liked who had been kind to me, or a hero who rose to the top from the bottom, I can't say that my immediate actions, in that instant, wouldn't be driven by those biases.

They probably would be, as no facts would yet be known. Later, and with more information, I might regret it ...but maybe not, because that was my role, the character I played in this Greek tragedy. If the former, I'd just rationalize it so I could live with myself.

In the end, there but for the grace of god go I.

 

[04009margaret]

I find it intriguing that the husband & wife neighbors describe the the crying after the "help, help, help" as completely different sounds. The husband describes it as a very loud high pitched cry with "no, please no". But the wife describes it as a very loud high pitched vibrating male voice, then goes on to demonstrate the cry. At no time during this description does she state that she heard the words her husband described hearing during the crying.

 

[aa9511]

Hi all,
I have not been able to catch up on the last two days of testimony....hopefully will get to catch up soon. But saw some snippets of Stander's daughter's testimony on TV....anyway I'm just befuddled that they still don't get how he totally did an act on them just like he has been doing an act for the Court!!!!!!!!

Let's see....from the time he fired the shots up until the time he called Stander for help, he had time to think (albeit it very briefly) about his strategy. His strategy was to over-act, just like he does in Court. So that everyone would say, "oh no of course this was an accident.....look at how upset he was! Look how he was crying. Look how he kept saying he wanted to save her!"

However, they don't think about fact that, that would take about 5 seconds for anyone in his situation to think of that strategy. I'm just sayin'. If you shoot someone on purpose, doesn't take a lot of brain-power to figure out that you need to seem very remorseful, sad, worried, frantic, etc. when people show up.

It's obvious he was lying in his expressed desire to "save" Reeva, because he admitted on the stand during various moments and inconsistencies, that he knew she was dead all the way back in the toilet room. Therefore, any expressed desires to "save" Reeva were all feigned. He already knew she was dead. Furthermore, his fingers in her mouth were feigned and all part of his act. How can you say you knew she was dead at one moment, and then a few minutes later, be putting your fingers down her throat trying to "get her to breathe"?

It's all lies.

And if I was the Judge, I would be thinking, well how can I believe a single word out of the Standers' mouths when they don't even know how badly they've been duped by Oscar?

JMO.

 

[crasshopper]

I'm going to try to go to bed, which now involves the following
1) sign off
2) :lurk:
3) doze off having logged back in to comment on a pressing point

wash/spin/repeat

Good night all!

 

[JudgeJudi]

Despite this being posted many times, some are concluding that the judge has absolute latitude and while such a disability has never been considered before, it will be now. (In my interpretation of SA law, on the whole, it doesn't allow much room for mitigating factors.)

Just warning you ahead of time. :biggrin:

I agree with your comments. Precedents are always being set.

 

[crasshopper]

Hi all,
I have not been able to catch up on the last two days of testimony....hopefully will get to catch up soon. But saw some snippets of Stander's daughter's testimony on TV....anyway I'm just befuddled that they still don't get how he totally did an act on them just like he has been doing an act for the Court!!!!!!!!

Let's see....from the time he fired the shots up until the time he called Stander for help, he had time to think (albeit it very briefly) about his strategy. His strategy was to over-act, just like he does in Court. So that everyone would say, "oh no of course this was an accident.....look at how upset he was! Look how he was crying. Look how he kept saying he wanted to save her!"

However, they don't think about fact that, that would take about 5 seconds for anyone in his situation to think of that strategy. I'm just sayin'. If you shoot someone on purpose, doesn't take a lot of brain-power to figure out that you need to seem very remorseful, sad, worried, frantic, etc. when people show up.

snipped your post

Hello, you should watch this video, it addresses many of your points!

Something new to watch. <snipped>

oscar trial legal panel 13 - YouTube

 

[Cymbaline]

Hi all,
I have not been able to catch up on the last two days of testimony....hopefully will get to catch up soon. But saw some snippets of Stander's daughter's testimony on TV....anyway I'm just befuddled that they still don't get how he totally did an act on them just like he has been doing an act for the Court!!!!!!!!

Let's see....from the time he fired the shots up until the time he called Stander for help, he had time to think (albeit it very briefly) about his strategy. His strategy was to over-act, just like he does in Court. So that everyone would say, "oh no of course this was an accident.....look at how upset he was! Look how he was crying. Look how he kept saying he wanted to save her!"

However, they don't think about fact that, that would take about 5 seconds for anyone in his situation to think of that strategy. I'm just sayin'. If you shoot someone on purpose, doesn't take a lot of brain-power to figure out that you need to seem very remorseful, sad, worried, frantic, etc. when people show up.

It's obvious he was lying in his expressed desire to "save" Reeva, because he admitted on the stand during various moments and inconsistencies, that he knew she was dead all the way back in the toilet room. Therefore, any expressed desires to "save" Reeva were all feigned. He already knew she was dead. Furthermore, his fingers in her mouth were feigned and all part of his act. How can you say you knew she was dead at one moment, and then a few minutes later, be putting your fingers down her throat trying to "get her to breathe"?

It's all lies.

And if I was the Judge, I would be thinking, well how can I believe a single word out of the Standers' mouths when they don't even know how badly they've been duped by Oscar?

JMO.

Maybe OP had his fingers in her mouth in a desperate attempt to make her vomit up that food she ate 2 hours before he mistakenly murdered her.

JMO

 

[ColonelMustard]

That is probably why there are the allegations of police tampering and moving things,but i think Nel has done quite alot to disprove that .
It will be interesting when it gets to the point of closing arguments when Nel finally states how he feels everything pans out .
I have been thinking of the bat and shooting sequence and trying to tie it in with when Nel wanted it put on the record about OP admitting that he crouched.
Does anyone think it may be possible that Nel will allege that OP was indeed on his stumps when they argued and he hit the toilet door with the cricket bat but put his legs on when he went to get the gun before shooting Reeva. If Nel thought this was the case it would add to premeditation ?
If not I am not sure why he would have put it on the record about the crouching .

I'll tell you another thing. Whether I read it here, read it somewhere else, heard it myself in his testimony, or had a dream about it, I THINK OP said at one point that he "kneeled down." It was hard for me to follow all of his goings this way and that along the passage, along the wall, along wherever. But I picture it in my mind that he was close the edge of where one wall is opening into another space. He kneeled and paused before making his next move.

For me, that raised the question of his legs. Can he kneel from his stumps? Can he kneel from his legs? Why would he leave his legs on RS side of the bed unless he wanted to make an excuse for why he didn't slip them on right away - IF indeed he wasn't wearing them. If not, why say "kneel" unless it's just a figure of speech like a blind person saying, "I saw that."

 

[ColonelMustard]

Does anyone have a link as to proof that Aimee took Reeva's bag from the crime scene?

I know she talked about getting it upstairs. But when did CS say Aimme took it from the crime scene? Durng cross? If so,when please?

To follow up on that, if she did take it did she say it was hers?

 

[Suthrnqt]

I'm thinking that a lot of the expert witnesses backed out before today. That was why Dixon became an "expert" jack of all trades.

MOO

^^^^This. I think expert witnesses are trying to distance themselves from this circus. I know it was reported that the forensic pathologist (Perumal, I think) will not be testifying. Of course, the DT put their own spin on this, and said it was a scheduling conflict. Hmmm.

 

[ColonelMustard]

You've a knack for the OP stink eye and have captured some awesome ones on your blog! Which I love. It's a great resource and fun to read too

Stink eye... HHHAAAAAaaaaaaaa!!!

 

[AlwaysShocked]

Hey, here's ANOTHER person who called an ambulance that night! It's the Security Guard, Mr. Baba:

"Baba: Mr. Stander sent me to go and call the police and ambulance. Jacob, the driver of the bakkie must escourt the police to the scene. Mr. Stander said that they must make sure that there are no cars being parked at OP's house. I then left to go and call the police and paramedics. I forgot the name of the Capt I spoke to but I wrote down his name. I also called the ambulance. I also called the control room and even informed the estate manager."

 

[steveml]

Personally I don't mind being labeled with that word. Heck, I hate murderers. I'm ok with that. Especially ones like Jodi Arias, Casey Anthony, Oscar Pistorius, Martin McNeil, Josh Powell, etc.

But then I also stand up and voice my opinions for those that have been wrongfully accused/convicted as well.

MOO

That's entirely your prerogative. Noticing the omission of a specific high-profile lady from your list of 'murderers', perhaps it shouldn't be too difficult to understand how people can have a difference in opinion from the 'other side' as it were?

 

[ColonelMustard]

Mr Mike N’s Interactions, and Delay, RE Interviews with SAPS and use of Shane’s Logic ©

This is conjecture, and cannot be proven. It is speculation, but it may explain some “strangeness” that needs explaining.

We heard today Mike N’s testimony that the first 2 sets of cops who tried to get his statement about what happeneed were dismissed by him.

The first one allegedly he did not like because the cop said something like, “help me ouit here brother.’ [or words to that effect.]

The 2nd set was 2 female cops, who he did not want to talk to either. No appt or such, no showing of ID, Mike stated.

Sorry this sounds a bit specious to me.
E,g., if either set of cops did not immediately show a badge, this could have quickly been remedied.

What I am getting at here is that his objections could have been immediately rendered meaningless by simple actions from those first 2 sets of cops.

But what happened is that these “no thank yous" bought TIME, how many days?

DT could have, within a few days, have formulated their strategies, after getting some info at BH, what they needed to counter PT’s earwitnesses with, etc.

Could this logic be why Mr N would not give a statement to cops until how many days passed?

Again this is just speculation and logic to try to explain some more “strangeness”, because as you now this one runs deep. ©Shane 13

I have no idea but my gut reaction says no. My best friend is African American and she sees everything - every. single. thing. - through the lens of racism. Unless it can be proven otherwise (which in most cases it can't) she truly believes the root cause of everything toward her is racism."

In part, I'm probably clueless and as a white person miss it completely because it's not being directed toward me. ON THE OTHER HAND, there are many times I think she's waaaay overboard. After explaining my take on something, she'll never believe 100% that it wasn't racism, but she may think about it.

Here's another example. In the US Jim Crow south, black men were ALWAYS referred to as "boy." Black women were also disrespected. THEREFORE, anyone white, even today, has to be VERY careful to refer to older blacks as Mr. ____ and Mrs.____. If for ANY reason you don't (and there could be many legitimate reasons why), they assume you are disrespecting them.

It's reactionary and understandable. Give it a few more generations.

 

[Budgie]

Regarding Frank the Houseboy, if a witness claims to have been asleep and heard nothing and he steadfastly sticks to that story, there is nothing the police or the defense can do about it

However, in relistening to Carise Stander's testimony she says that when she and Dad arrived at Oscar's house that night there were "people in the street". Asked who, she replied "security and Frank".

Now wait. Frank who lives in the house and slept through everything was out in the street - presumably dressed - at this extremely early point? Oscar had not even come down the steps yet!

To me, this casts an entirely new, very hinky light on Frank! Perhaps he was going to assist Oscar by "taking Reeva to the hospital". Perhaps Oscar needed Uncle Johann to get out through the guarded gates to the estate unseen by the on duty guards.

The guard Mr. Baba and the arrival of Dr. Stitt may have interrupted a body disposal plan?

Surely, there must be something they can garner from this chap Frank. What did he see when he woke? What did he do? (get dressed? grab his cellphone?open his door?) Which way did he go to get out to the street where Carice saw him? (through the kitchen, past the stairs out the front door?) Why was he out on the street? If he didn't hear anything at the time of killing, what or who woke him? What did he think had happened? Where were Oscar's dog(s)? Did he speak to Oscar at any point before he went outside? What did he say to security who were also on the street with him? Did he make any calls? Was he photographed as well? Did he have any blood on him or his clothing?

He's the only other person in the house, there must be something he can provide. Something is not right with this not calling him to give his testimony for either side.

 

[JudgeJudi]

New witness stuff for this week should be up by end of Wednesday. I was not able to watch last night but catching up now and wow, another crazy, and short, day!

It sounds like these two new ear witnesses heard very limited pieces of the incident and never went out on their balconies nor had open windows like the other witnesses (if I read correctly, need to watch). That makes a big difference!

And WTH, reading that OP muttered to Kim Myers in court today. So stupid & arrogant, if true!

Sounds like Wolmarans ran for the hills with Perumal.

Still can't get over Reeva's bag being taken from the scene... And the introduction of Frank.

J Stander was asked very directly who was at the scene a few times and he totally left out Baba, Frank and Ngelengthwa!!

I absolutely fail to understand how this obscenity of a defense case can be for real???? I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone.

It's simply amazing that an article like a handbag belonging to the deceased was allowed to be removed from the crime scene, especially by the sister of the accused. Who knows what that bag contained.

 

[ColonelMustard]

Hello everyone, first time post. Just a quick thought about the inside-out jeans: I believe it was stated that Reeva had been doing laundry at OP's house earlier that day. I usually wash all my jeans and dark pants inside out because I have read that it helps prevent fading during the wash. A plausible explanation, perhaps.

I can imagine clothes and bedcovers being thrown around in the heat of an argument where Reeva might have wanted to pack her things and get dressed to leave or if OP was making a scene telling her to "Get the F... out of my house!" and throwing her things out the window.

Interesting!! She may have had the light blue ones hanging over the window ledge in the bathroom window to let them air dry. When they were dry, they slipped right out onto the ground. Happens all the time to me when I throw clothes over my fence to air dry. 1/2 of them blow into my neighbor's yard when they get dry enough to fly away or simply slip over the other side.

 

[Suthrnqt]

My witness?

I'm innocent...my doors and fans are still where they've always been :wink:

Your posts always make me :giggle:

 

[ColonelMustard]

It's only taken me countless hours, but I think I worked out what Nel did today. Roux objected and the Judge corrected him for saying 'shots' to a witness, instead of 'sounds'.

So after the break, Nel came back having invented a new word, 'bangshots', which seemed to satisfy everyone.

GREAT figurin', Z!! Love it!!

(Roger the Dodger Dixon just clarified for Nel that they were "Bangstrikes, not bangshots." )

 

[ColonelMustard]

Seems odd for a murder suspect's family to be allowed to pack a bag for him and roam around the crime scene. Why does he need a watch and a change of clothes in the clink?

"...in the clink." LOL! I haven't heard that phrase in years!!!