Trial Discussion Thread #34 - 14.05.06 Day 27

[liesbeth]

Did you hear the two woman scream in court today? I would guess that sound could be interpreted as "blood curdling" - Mr and Mrs N both said it was high pitched also. It's reasonable to believe that screaming is what all the witnesses heard - they just applied different interpretations.

Unfortunately Mr. Nhlengethwa explained this to the judge in his language. He told the judge that there is a difference between screaming: "memeza" (to scream, call or yell) and crying: "khala" (includes a mournful element: wailing, weeping). And what he heard was loud crying. From a man.

 

[ColonelMustard]

bb1 - well, there are a pair of jeans on the ground directly below the toilette window, the inference being they went out the toilette window. So, imo -- yes, it is probable the window had been opened. I also have considered "GET DOWN" as a command to get down from the toilette as she tried to escape, or a threat (reinforced with a gun) to get on her knees. He obviously believes someone heard him say it -- why else would he nuance version 9.xx with this new phrase?

bb2: Yes, I think VR has some splainin' to do. Roux certainly put his best foot forward on cross with him.

bb3: air rifle extension could be a muzzlebrake/muffler to direct the co2 gases away from the shooter.
http://www.airgunhome.com/pages/silencers.html
I don't think the pellets would totally disintigrate -- but the spent pellet would be very small as the pellet hole(s?) in the bedroom door is only .177in or 4.5mm

my :twocents:

I may be misunderstanding this. You're suggesting that OP was telling her to go out the toilet window? If so, that would make no sense. The "Intruder" or fellow burglars may have been on the ladder and there was no ladder at the toilet window, I don't think.

The alleged "Get down" (in place) would show he was concerned about her.

 

[Trooper]

I really wouldn't worry about it. If there was any suspicious circumstance, or the slightest thing that benefited either side, they'd be using it to their advantage without a doubt.

He probably wasn't in the house that evening. He could well have been getting merrily sloshed or stoned somewhere, and came back to the house that morning. He may have gone away for the evening to give Reeva and OP more privacy. We're unlikely to hear anything from the court in any case.

Quite a coincidence , then, that Frank managed thru all his sloshing and stoning as you seem to have gathered in your deep investigation of this event , to arrive at Oscars house right outside in the street for the Standars to see as they rock up at warp speed.... nice timing,Frank!..

 

[minor4th]

"blood curdling"? To me they sounded like baying hounds, wounded baying hounds.

I think it was just a ruse by Roux to try to get the idea of "high pitch" into people's minds.

Roux never asked M. Berger or Mrs. Stipp to give it a whirl nor any men. It was lame to ask these two women to do that. I feel confident that M'lady saw right through it - maybe she even secretly cringed inside both because it was ridiculous but also if they were both black. If they were, Roux asked them to make fools of themselves but didn't ask any of the white women to.

Well, therein lies the force of subjective interpretation - it sounded "blood curdling" to me. What exactly is the definition of blood curdling anyway?

Yes, I agree that it was partly for the purpose of hearing a high pitched scream, but I think it was also intended to give the judge an idea of just what was meant by "loud crying" - those demonstrations by the witnesses were informative IMO because those sounds could definitely be described as wails or screams or "crying out." It was definitely not just ordinary "crying."

Of course Roux is not going to ask the state's witnesses to demonstrate a scream or cry - Nel could have asked if he wanted to get it on the record what the screams sounded like to his witnesses.

I don't think the judge "saw through it" because what is there to see through? Nothing IMO - they were not pretending to scream just like Oscar. They were describing (in their own voices) what it sounded like.

 

[Cymbaline]

OP did not want to help take Reeva to the hospital. If it really was a speedy trip to the hospital that he wanted he would have put Reeva in his BMW and drove the girl that he loved to the emergency room. He didn't do anything to save her.

Dr Stipp testified that he saw Oscar through that bathroom window. Dr Stipp called security because he heard gunshots. Security immediately arrives in their security car. Dr Stipp then spoke to security from his balcony. Dr Stipp points out to security that the gunshots came from OP's house.

If Dr Stipp can see OP, OP can see Dr Stipp. OP can also see Dr Stipp talking to security. Security is in a clearly marked Silver Woods Country Estate security car equipped with flashing lights that I will assume are flashing.

It is my opinion that OP looked out his bathroom window, saw security at Dr Stipps and then and only then decides to make his first phone call to the one person that can stop security. The estate manager.


JMO

Quoting myself and continuing with the same thought.

OP calls Stander...

Stander answers the call from bed. Stander agrees to immediately drive to OP's house.
Standers daughter "Carice" is awake because she heard screams. Stander takes his daughter with him to OP's house. OP knows Stander lives 3 minutes away. OP's next call is to netcare. But he oddly doesn't remember what he said all he remembers is that netcare said to bring Reeva to the hospital. I believe that call was 66 seconds. I don't think he ever spoke to anyone at netcare. I think he was waiting to be connected and he hung up because he could see the Silver Woods Country Estate security car start driving away from Dr Stipps house and driving to OP's house. Who does OP call next? Security. OP doesn't remember why but it must have been because he needed help lifting Reeva. You know because netcare allegedly told OP to take Reeva to the hospital.
I think OP called security because they were driving toward his house and Stander wasn't there yet to stop them.

OP doesn't say anything to security and the call ends.

Next is an incoming call from security. OP answers and tells security that everything is fine.

Then, his live in gardener "Frank" magically appears outside and is in the street with security when Stander and Carice arrive.

OP is suddenly able pick Reeva up and carry her downstairs.


(Carice Stander recently got married and is now Carice Viljoen)

Roux: Okay, you say you arrived and saw Frank the gardener and a person there.
by Sky News court reporter 2:41 AM yesterday

Viljoen: Yes.by Sky News court reporter 2:41 AM yesterday

Roux: What car did you drive?
by Sky News court reporter 2:41 AM yesterday

Viljoen: A mini, a silver mini.
by Sky News court reporter 2:41 AM yesterday


Viljoen: We asked what is going on, they said they don't know. I remember as we approached the house the door was slightly open. I remember I just touched the door and it opened.
by Sky News court reporter 2:42 AM yesterday

Viljoen: I remember the first thing I saw was Oscar carrying Reeva. I came into the door and he was there on the landing coming down.
by Sky News court reporter 2:42 AM yesterday

Viljoen: I proceeded to enter the house and he came down. You could see he was walking very fast. He just wanted to get her to the hospital.
by Sky News court reporter 2:43 AM yesterday

Transcript on page 8
http://news.sky.com/story/1255199/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-26-court-transcript



JMO

 

[liesbeth]

Thank you so much for clearing that up. I was wondering if it was used as a title of respect for an older gentleman - as I know of other communities that use "uncle" in this way. That fits with Stander acting as a "mentor" in some respects with Oscar. That is the impression I get from Stander's testimony.

As I said it does not mean they were close. Any older man must be called "Oom" if you are a traditional Afrikaner. So it doesn't prove or disprove that Stander was Oscar's mentor.

 

[Trooper]

Unfortunately Mr. Nhlengethwa explained this to the judge in his language. He told the judge that there is a difference between screaming: "memeza" (to scream, call or yell) and crying: "khala" (includes a mournful element: wailing, weeping). And what he heard was loud crying. From a man.

And Mr N was quite specific in his differentiation of these sounds.. he made sure he laid it down and made it clear, including using his Xhosa language with clicks included and translating it . He took the time because it seemed important to him. He wanted to be clearly understood , and with no ambiguity , leaving no room for a random misinterpretation by those so inclined to do so.

 

[Karmady]

Quoting myself and continuing with the same thought.

OP calls Stander...

Stander answers the call from bed. Stander agrees to immediately drive to OP's house.
Standers daughter "Carice" is awake because she heard screams. Stander takes his daughter with him to OP's house. OP knows Stander lives 3 minutes away. OP's next call is to netcare. But he oddly doesn't remember what he said all he remembers is that netcare said to bring Reeva to the hospital. I believe that call was 66 seconds. I don't think he ever spoke to anyone at netcare. I think he was waiting to be connected and he hung up because he could see the Silver Woods Country Estate security car start driving away from Dr Stipps house and driving to OP's house. Who does OP call next? Security. OP doesn't remember why but it must have been because he needed help lifting Reeva. You know because netcare allegedly told OP to take Reeva to the hospital.
I think OP called security because they were driving toward his house and Stander wasn't there yet to stop them.

OP doesn't say anything to security and the call ends.

Next is an incoming call from security. OP answers and tells security that everything is fine.

Then, his live in gardener "Frank" magically appears outside and is in the street with security when Stander and Carice arrive.

OP is suddenly able pick Reeva up and carry her downstairs.


(Carice Stander recently got married and is now Carice Viljoen)

Roux: Okay, you say you arrived and saw Frank the gardener and a person there.by Sky News court reporter 2:41 AM yesterday

Viljoen: Yes.by Sky News court reporter 2:41 AM yesterday

Roux: What car did you drive?by Sky News court reporter 2:41 AM yesterday

Viljoen: A mini, a silver mini.by Sky News court reporter 2:41 AM yesterday


Viljoen: We asked what is going on, they said they don't know. I remember as we approached the house the door was slightly open. I remember I just touched the door and it opened.by Sky News court reporter 2:42 AM yesterday

Viljoen: I remember the first thing I saw was Oscar carrying Reeva. I came into the door and he was there on the landing coming down.by Sky News court reporter 2:42 AM yesterday

Viljoen: I proceeded to enter the house and he came down. You could see he was walking very fast. He just wanted to get her to the hospital.by Sky News court reporter 2:43 AM yesterday

Transcript on page 8
http://news.sky.com/story/1255199/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-26-court-transcript



JMO

Just curious....why is Carice in quotes?

 

[minor4th]

Apologies if I'm repeating old news. I'm reading as fast as I can to catch up.

During Mrs Nhlengethwa's testimony Nel put it to her that, based on Dr Stipp's evidence, she heard the last set of sounds. And then the help, help, help.

Roux objects and says they have the 03:16 call.

Nel says that the call is arguable. Arguable? But...but... And then I realized that we don't have the cellphone records. So where did we get the times of Stipp's call?:

YT 10 March Session 1: Roux cross of Baba:
13:00 Roux tells Baba that according to Dr Stipp he couldn't get through at first and only got through later and then Roux says that Stipp must have gotten through on the 03:15:51 (16 sec call).​

Oh, and the reason we don't have the record is found here:

10 March Session 1, Roux cross of Baba:
25:30 Cellphone records not available to public. (Q (landline security), R (cellphone security) and S (state's timeline of calls.)​

They had the cell phone records in court and they were admitted - they stood there and looked at the records together.

 

[minor4th]

As I said it does not mean they were close. Any older man must be called "Oom" if you are a traditional Afrikaner. So it doesn't prove or disprove that Stander was Oscar's mentor.

I see, thanks.

 

[Trooper]

Well, therein lies the force of subjective interpretation - it sounded "blood curdling" to me. What exactly is the definition of blood curdling anyway?

Yes, I agree that it was partly for the purpose of hearing a high pitched scream, but I think it was also intended to give the judge an idea of just what was meant by "loud crying" - those demonstrations by the witnesses were informative IMO because those sounds could definitely be described as wails or screams or "crying out." It was definitely not just ordinary "crying."

Of course Roux is not going to ask the state's witnesses to demonstrate a scream or cry - Nel could have asked if he wanted to get it on the record what the screams sounded like to his witnesses.

I don't think the judge "saw through it" because what is there to see through? Nothing IMO - they were not pretending to scream just like Oscar. They were describing (in their own voices) what it sounded like.

BBM

oh really.. that is a step too far.. both women sounded like ewes calling for a lamb.. surely, even in Texas , blood curdling doesn't sound like a sheep ... I know things are different there, but that's a bit too much..

 

[ColonelMustard]

If the current evidence from the both the PT and DT expert witnesses correct then with the above scenario I'm left holding a mental picture that I find so very hard to believe. Much harder than believing OP screamed like a woman.

I have to imagine that OP was arguing with Reeva whilst on his stumps - that's a whole 4ft tall, for a guy that supposedly likes to be in control and domineering. Rather than steadily moving down the corridor to maintain his balance as he would be in an intruder situation, he's running after Reeva in a waddling fashion through the bedroom, along the corridor and into the bathroom, whilst trying to remain upright. Whilst doing this he has to hope that neither Reeva stops running or he stops waddling, as if he has to stop without anything for balance he simply falls over. He also has to make sure that he doesn't come into contact with Reeva as again, he'll lose balance and his best laid plan will be scuppered as he lies on the floor.

He can't push or move Reeva anywhere, as guess what...he'd fall over. Once he stops moving he has to lean on something, that is a simple fact. It then would become necessary for him to request that Reeva take herself into the toilet, or wait while he uses her for balance, and then follow her into the toilet. At any time from wherever the argument started, Reeva, who is quite an athletic girl herself, could move her hip to the side and send OP tumbling. A simple push with one hand would do it

Now, it may be difficult to imagine OP screaming in a high octave, but if I'm thinking in terms of probability, the threatening but waddling OP is gonna come second every single time.

The waddling explanation isn't meant to be funny - it's realism.

Once you get over this it helps to understand how ridiculous this scenario appears.

The upper body strength of OP was massive. He'd recently lifted a women almost over his head in Dancing with the Stars SA version. With his arms extended, he may have been able to reach wall to wall in those passage ways - and he may have had his gun. With that he'd have the advantage and doesn't have to waddle, run, or anything else. Also, I'm not convinced that he was even on his stumps.

I also think the bedroom door was locked. He said it was and that it he felt "trapped." I think it was was Reeva who felt trapped because she WAS!

 

[minor4th]

Unfortunately Mr. Nhlengethwa explained this to the judge in his language. He told the judge that there is a difference between screaming: "memeza" (to scream, call or yell) and crying: "khala" (includes a mournful element: wailing, weeping). And what he heard was loud crying. From a man.

Right. I was talking about the scream/wailing demonstrations by the women. They all knew it was a man's voice and did not mistake it for a woman. But the way they did the demonstration was informative IMO

 

[ColonelMustard]

Thanks for that. I wondered how he'd suddenly lost 13 inches in a few weeks!!

Osteoporosis.

 

[ColonelMustard]

didnt dixon mention some crime boards were going to be in court and nel asked him how he knew not sure what they prove but thought id add to your list

"Witness boards" - whatever those are.

 

[Karmady]

The upper body strength of OP was massive. He'd recently lifted a women almost over his head in Dancing with the Stars SA version. With his arms extended, he may have been able to reach wall to wall in those passage ways - and he may have had his gun. With that he'd have the advantage and doesn't have to waddle, run, or anything else. Also, I'm not convinced that he was even on his stumps.

I also think the bedroom door was locked. He said it was and that it he felt "trapped." I think it was was Reeva who felt trapped because she WAS!

I've only seen the Italian dance show. Is there a video of the SA one?

 

[Cymbaline]

Just curious....why is Carice in quotes?

I'm on my iPhone. I used Siri instead of typing.

 

[ColonelMustard]

If you agree that OP is 1.23 metres on his stumps, can you convert this to feet for me please?

If you get no answer on this, google "convert" You'll find online tools x a million that will do it for you in a nanosecond - also convert anything else inthe world you can think of.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Regarding Frank the Houseboy, if a witness claims to have been asleep and heard nothing and he steadfastly sticks to that story, there is nothing the police or the defense can do about it

However, in relistening to Carise Stander's testimony she says that when she and Dad arrived at Oscar's house that night there were "people in the street". Asked who, she replied "security and Frank".

Now wait. Frank who lives in the house and slept through everything was out in the street - presumably dressed - at this extremely early point? Oscar had not even come down the steps yet!

To me, this casts an entirely new, very hinky light on Frank! Perhaps he was going to assist Oscar by "taking Reeva to the hospital". Perhaps Oscar needed Uncle Johann to get out through the guarded gates to the estate unseen by the on duty guards.

The guard Mr. Baba and the arrival of Dr. Stitt may have interrupted a body disposal plan?

Maybe, the last call on the "lost" phone was to
Frank-the-caretaker???
Police had to prove Frank's house phone, but did they?

Did Reeva throw her jeans out of the bathroom window to alarm Frank??

 

[liesbeth]

They had the cell phone records in court and they were admitted - they stood there and looked at the records together.

Yes. But it was not made available to the public. It's the same as Saayman's evidence? So we, the public, can only go on what was said in court.