Trial Discussion Thread #34 - 14.05.06 Day 27

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if you are assuming that the alarm was on, why do you think he switched it off when going downstairs to open the front door?

I just have to assume that the alarm was on because that is what the discussion is about. I don't personally believe that it was on that night. Living in a Fortress Community with roaming guards and electrified walls and wealthy neighbors I'm sure OP felt very safe in his home and did not arm the alarm that night. The point of confusion for me is if he did arm it how could he open the patio door and the bathroom window without setting it off? Those two would be wired to the alarm. My personal belief is that he would make a habit of arming the alarm when he left, if Frank or his maid were not in the home.
 
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Thank YOU for the refreshing civility! What do I think? I think they had an intense argument that night. I think that Reeva was a pleaser who wanted to make it all go away, and that when OP went out on the balcony she slipped quietly out of the room to go to the loo. I think she locked the door because she didn't feel safe, given OP's anger. I think OP heard her movement in the bathroom and already feeling angry, went to rage mode that there might be an intruder in the house. I believe he didn't think for a minute about where Reeva was, NIR do I believe he acted to protect her.

Rage sent him with a gun into the bathroom, and rage had him fire 4 shots. I think he knew when he saw her dead that the very worst of him--all his demons-- were going to be brought out into the open. I think he grieved that as much as he grieved her, if not more, and that ever since he has been willing to do or say anything to escape responsibility.

In a lot of ways it doesn't matter, but as revolting as all that is, for me it does not add up to premeditated murder.

BBM

OP testified under cross that he never went out onto the balcony that night. The fans were not really on the balcony, only one of the legs of the tripod fan was out on the balcony with the other two legs in the bedroom. The other fan was between the legs, in the bedroom, of the tripod fan. OP also said that if anyone said that he went out on the balcony that night, that they would be lying.
 
Ok, so in summary, premeditation can never occur in your world unless we had direct evidence from the accused (who is also proven not to be under duress) admitting to premeditating to the crime.

Other than that scenario, all other scenarios will not lead to premeditation because by definition if accused thinks in a certain way (i.e. scared), that's that. Too much gray as you say.

Sigh. No.
 
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BBM

OP testified under cross that he never went out onto the balcony that night. The fans were not really on the balcony, only one of the legs of the tripod fan was out on the balcony with the other two legs in the bedroom. The other fan was between the legs, in the bedroom, of the tripod fan. OP also said that if anyone said that he went out on the balcony that night, that they would be lying.

Post-shooting in his second "Where's Reeva?" runaround iirc, OP testified that he went out onto the balcony and called for help. He described unlocking the balcony door/s one-handed [as he was still holding his cocked gun], opening the doors one-handed, then going onto the balcony still on his stumps and still without turning on a light in bedroom or bath iirc.

P.S. ... Just noticed the bolded part, and don't know how to reconcile that with what I thought I heard OP say about running out and calling for help, then finally coming in and putting on his legs.
 
Thanks goes to Roux for that display as he was the one that gave the verbal cue to at least one of the women to do it. Apparently OP thought that would be a good idea for them to do. I doubt that Roux himself thought it would be a good idea.

MOO

I agree, although surely if Roux considered it a mistake he shouldnt have asked the question, even if OP did want it done. It's his job as a lawyer to protect his client, and I can't see how getting two women to make those ridiculous noises could have possibly helped the defence
 
according to stander, op's call to him:
"Oom (Uncle) Johan, please, please, please come to my house. Please. I shot Reeva. I thought she was in an intruder. Please come quick."

from the bail statement:
I phoned Johan Stander (“Stander”) who was involved in the administration of the estate and asked him to phone the ambulance.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/oscar-pistorius-full-court-statement-1718677#ixzz312pxLoOo

those two don't tally very well.
i have the op to stander call down as 03:19:03. does anyone know how long that call was? tia
 
Post-shooting in his second "Where's Reeva?" runaround iirc, OP testified that he went out onto the balcony and called for help. He described unlocking the balcony door/s one-handed [as he was still holding his cocked gun], opening the doors one-handed, then going onto the balcony still on his stumps and still without turning on a light in bedroom or bath iirc.

Correct. I should have said that OP said he never went onto the balcony to get the fans from the balcony that night.

Although I challenge OP that he never actually went onto the balcony at all that night, not even to yell/scream help. He admitted that his post shooting running around concerning the side of the bed and balcony would be impossible if the room was in fact the way that the first police on the scene saw it (as seen in the photos).

MOO
 
according to stander, op's call to him:
"Oom (Uncle) Johan, please, please, please come to my house. Please. I shot Reeva. I thought she was in an intruder. Please come quick."

from the bail statement:
I phoned Johan Stander (“Stander”) who was involved in the administration of the estate and asked him to phone the ambulance.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/oscar-pistorius-full-court-statement-1718677#ixzz312pxLoOo

those two don't tally very well.
i have the op to stander call down as 03:19:03. does anyone know how long that call was? tia

24 seconds
 
If the current evidence from the both the PT and DT expert witnesses correct then with the above scenario I'm left holding a mental picture that I find so very hard to believe. Much harder than believing OP screamed like a woman.

I have to imagine that OP was arguing with Reeva whilst on his stumps - that's a whole 4ft tall, for a guy that supposedly likes to be in control and domineering. Rather than steadily moving down the corridor to maintain his balance as he would be in an intruder situation, he's running after Reeva in a waddling fashion through the bedroom, along the corridor and into the bathroom, whilst trying to remain upright. Whilst doing this he has to hope that neither Reeva stops running or he stops waddling, as if he has to stop without anything for balance he simply falls over. He also has to make sure that he doesn't come into contact with Reeva as again, he'll lose balance and his best laid plan will be scuppered as he lies on the floor.

He can't push or move Reeva anywhere, as guess what...he'd fall over. Once he stops moving he has to lean on something, that is a simple fact. It then would become necessary for him to request that Reeva take herself into the toilet, or wait while he uses her for balance, and then follow her into the toilet. At any time from wherever the argument started, Reeva, who is quite an athletic girl herself, could move her hip to the side and send OP tumbling. A simple push with one hand would do it

Now, it may be difficult to imagine OP screaming in a high octave, but if I'm thinking in terms of probability, the threatening but waddling OP is gonna come second every single time.

The waddling explanation isn't meant to be funny - it's realism.

Once you get over this it helps to understand how ridiculous this scenario appears.

OP is only 4 feet tall on his stumps? Are you sure? He is supposed to be 6ft 1/2 inch with prosthetics, so he wears 2 feet tall prosthetics? And they are below-knee ones.

And hasn't OP said he has mobility on his stumps?
 
according to stander, op's call to him:
"Oom (Uncle) Johan, please, please, please come to my house. Please. I shot Reeva. I thought she was in an intruder. Please come quick."

from the bail statement:
I phoned Johan Stander (“Stander”) who was involved in the administration of the estate and asked him to phone the ambulance.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/oscar-pistorius-full-court-statement-1718677#ixzz312pxLoOo

those two don't tally very well.
i have the op to stander call down as 03:19:03. does anyone know how long that call was? tia

The call to Netcare was at 3:20:05. I don't have the time/length of the call to Stander, however, the call after Netcare was to security at 3:21:33. The Netcare call lasted 66 seconds. So it appears that as soon as OP hung up with Netcare he then dialed the number for security. I would then guess that as soon as he hung up with Stander that he called Netcare, giving him a second or two to hang up and dial the number. So then that would make the call to Stander around 1 minute perhaps.

MOO
 
At the start of the defense's case Roux said that the following evidence will be adduced:

Note: I added the names in parenthesis.

1. Wound ballistics, urine content and gastric emptying (Botha?)
2. Merits (Oscar?)
3. Wound ballistics, cricket bat damage to door, sound, prosthetic marking, lighting, visibility (Dixon?)
4. Evidence relevant to Events on 14 Feb (The Standers, Mr and Mrs N, Mrs M?)
5. Evidence relevant to vulnerability (???)

He said between 14 and 17 witnesses will be called. But yesterday Roux told the judge the case will be done by Tuesday.

Does this mean no ballistics/sound/etc experts? Why is Roux alone in court with no Oldwage, Wolmerans or Van der Westhuizen. They haven't been in court since Monday.

I wonder what's going on?
 
Thank YOU for the refreshing civility! What do I think? I think they had an intense argument that night. I think that Reeva was a pleaser who wanted to make it all go away, and that when OP went out on the balcony she slipped quietly out of the room to go to the loo. I think she locked the door because she didn't feel safe, given OP's anger. I think OP heard her movement in the bathroom and already feeling angry, went to rage mode that there might be an intruder in the house. I believe he didn't think for a minute about where Reeva was, NIR do I believe he acted to protect her.

Rage sent him with a gun into the bathroom, and rage had him fire 4 shots. I think he knew when he saw her dead that the very worst of him--all his demons-- were going to be brought out into the open. I think he grieved that as much as he grieved her, if not more, and that ever since he has been willing to do or say anything to escape responsibility.

In a lot of ways it doesn't matter, but as revolting as all that is, for me it does not add up to premeditated murder.
No, thank YOU! :)

It's an interesting theory but off the top of my sleepy head I have a couple of 'problems' - do you think this all happened in the dark? Also, what about the time when he says he was standing in front of the toilet door - I can't/don't believe she stood there frozen in fear without saying a word. By your version, had she slipped away without saying anything she would have had no idea about the supposed intruder and would have just heard him screaming so you'd think she'd say or shout something. Then, he would of known it was her so we're back to premeditated.

Sigh. It's hard enough trying to figure out but now you've gone and concocted a cocktail mix of truth and falsehoods. I wish Nel had just hammered a confession out of him or he had the decency to tell the truth and accept the consequences but as we've all seen, supporters and detractors alike, that's just not in his nature.
 
OP is only 4 feet tall on his stumps? Are you sure? He is supposed to be 6ft 1/2 inch with prosthetics, so he wears 2 feet tall prosthetics? And they are below-knee ones.

And hasn't OP said he has mobility on his stumps?

I think he's 5 foot 1 on his stumps. He's lost say 2/3rds of his lower leg.
 
Thank YOU for the refreshing civility! What do I think? I think they had an intense argument that night. I think that Reeva was a pleaser who wanted to make it all go away, and that when OP went out on the balcony she slipped quietly out of the room to go to the loo. I think she locked the door because she didn't feel safe, given OP's anger.
RBSM

In a lot of ways it doesn't matter, but as revolting as all that is, for me it does not add up to premeditated murder.


I agree with most points except the latter. Premeditation can be formed in an instant, and in the US the prosecutors often emphasize that point. I don't think 3 of the 4 shots or ll 4 shots hit Reeva the purported intruder without conscious aiming. For all of OP's enthusiasm for the gun range, shooting watermelons and through the roof gun "wartime" flashbacks or other triggers weren't in play. He shot to kill or maim imo and that is premeditation.

he might not be convicted but that is my :cow:
 
The call to Netcare was at 3:20:05. I don't have the time/length of the call to Stander, however, the call after Netcare was to security at 3:21:33. The Netcare call lasted 66 seconds. So it appears that as soon as OP hung up with Netcare he then dialed the number for security. I would then guess that as soon as he hung up with Stander that he called Netcare, giving him a second or two to hang up and dial the number. So then that would make the call to Stander around 1 minute perhaps.

MOO

The Stander call is 24 seconds. There's a gap of 38 seconds between the Stander and NetCare calls.
 
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