Trial Discussion Thread #34 - 14.05.06 Day 27

[crasshopper]

sbm
Frank.

Googling Frank Chiziweni I found several articles which reported that he stayed in a room off the kitchen.

Frank Chiziweni is understood to have slept in the domestic quarters next to the Paralympic champion’s kitchen on the ground floor of his home on a secure estate outside Pretoria.

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2014/05/05/oscar-pistoriuss-housekeeper-heard-nothing-night-of-shooting-which-woke-neighbours-170-metres-away/

 

[ColonelMustard]

On the edge:

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/in-one-mo...-lurking-behind-the-smile-20131129-2yh2k.html

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-02-...enced-to-18-years-for-fiancees-murder/5251168

WHOA. Thanks for the links.

 

[minor4th]

I don't really think there is any way this can be considered actual proof. The most you could say is that it is your opinion there is a possibility that the witnesses were hearing Oscar rather than Reeva.

I agree - I only used the word "proved" because the post I was responding to had used that word to make the opposite point, when they probably meant that it was their opinion.

 

[ColonelMustard]

I have often thought even before the trial that OP could have been on his prosthetic legs and knelt down when he fired those shots rather than being on his stumps. Also, I do not think they went to bed that night so he was not on his stumps IMO.

Interesting.

 

[Viper]

Respectfully, Nel has not stated clearly that his case is that the bat hits were before the gunshots. He hasn't mentioned anything about the first shots (before 3:17); he has said it's his case that the shots at 3:17 killed Reeva.

I do believe you're right that he will somehow argue that the bat hits were first when it comes time to closing arguments.

I am really looking forward to the closing arguments because ATM there are so many contradictions among the witnesses' testimonies - I can't wait to see how each side deals with this and explains whose version they accept and why and which accounts they discount and why.

So after all of this testimony what do you think Minor? Batshots first or gunshots first? Are you betting on the judges to not understand this conundrum, or that they figure it out? I would not ask except for the fact that you continue to bring up the issue. BTW, I cannot believe that the judges are as confused about this as you may be. Wouldn't they ask at least one question if any confusion did exist?

 

[ColonelMustard]

When my son still lived at home, he would often go to sleep with his iPod plugged into his ears. So he would hear NOTHING. You could pound and pound on his door,which he locked, as a once obnoxious teen. LOL

Maybe Frank had headphones and played video games or listened to music as he went to sleep?

That's a good point. How did he finally get up to be outside, then?

 

[minor4th]

Hi Estelle, I had wondered where you had been. I am so sorry to hear of your loss. Though some ago now I remember well the loss I felt when my parents passed on.

My background is medical but unqualified due to serious ill health intervening. So I have only a fairly basic grasp and not in any way up to the medics we have on board. I did also have an interest in psychology and that is where my comments about Minor's writings appear to be female stem from. It is usually quite easy to determine whether a writer is male or female but I am not infallible. On the other hand I know often my offerings are considered to be from a male, which I am definitely not - lol.

I am female. Hope that clears up this issue - I was not around while I was being discussed earlier.

ETA: I always "pictured" you as a male lol

 

[Greater Than]

Whatever Frank heard or saw and why he is't testifying is all very mysterious it would seem. It's the curious incident of the gardener in the nighttime really isn't it. But of all the people involved in this, he is the one probably at the most disadvantage so I feel for him. Not a South African, possibly not as educated as the neighbours, employed by the golden boy of a wealthy, powerful established family, probably questioned from all directions - lots of pressure that could well have been very intimidating.

If anyone really knows what Frank heard and saw it may well be any friends he has on the estate who are also live-in employees. Anyway, hopefully his testimony will not make a difference either way and the guy can live in peace. At least, as someone funnily said earlier, so far OP hasn't blamed him for it.

I certainly would not want to be in his shoes. No doubt he doesn't want his name splashed all over the media and I'm sure he feels some sense of loyalty to his boss, but I'm sorry, a defenseless woman was horrifically executed. If he had a shred of integrity and decency, he would testify to what he saw and/or heard that night to ensure justice is served. MOO

 

[ColonelMustard]

Frank, as we all likely suspect, would know a lot! I'm loathe to criticise him too much though for not testifying/making a statement without "walking a mile in his shoes". I'd speculate that there was a huge power imbalance in the relationship he had with OP - who was not only a national hero but from an old and wealthy family. Is it unlikely/impossible that he felt intimidated? I'd say no.

I don't mean to be mercenary but they may have paid him off --- or both, the carrot and the stick.

 

[ColonelMustard]

Apologies if someone has answered this - I am making my way through in an orderly 'nicely typed' manner.

She works for CNN - at some point in the last few years she did a profile on Pistorius back when many people admired him, interviewing him in his home etc so to an extent, she 'knows' him and I think is sympathetic to him. Since she's the journo, more concerning to me is Kelly Phelps, their legal analyst who is often consulted during Curnow's reports. She is totally for the defence, something a few South African posters here have commented on. Totally, as in I have never heard her concede anything for the state but always finds a way to spin it for Pistorius. Especially laughable was yesterday's report where she said that the defence's neighbour's testimony swept away the state's version while never once mentioning that all of them testified to events after the shooting and the state has never claimed OP was not distraught then. And, unlike every other SA legal expert I''ve seen in the last 24-hours, claimed that Nel spent little time on cross as he couldn't 'poke holes' in their testimony - all the others say he doesn't really care because of that post-shooting factor. This is her, though it's not one of her 'better' ones - post-Dixon was especially 'surreal' shall we say:

Pistorius trial resumes after break - YouTube

And this is another interesting chat:

on time wasting and Oscar's emotional state. - YouTube

Thanks!

 

[ColonelMustard]

I was making a lame joke in response to the post about 'armed intruders', which I quoted in my reply and was in my post along with the comment you're querying.

I was being completely facetious. )

 

[TorisMom003]

OK I give up. I can not listen to OP any longer to try and find out about:

The security in his house and the "open zone" (sorry Viper, can't handle it any longer),
Which day he talked about Sam T saying that it takes 4 minutes to put on his prosthetic legs (sorry Paysee, I tried to tough it out but I can't take his voice anymore),
The part where Nel asked him about if his screaming voice was tested and he said yes (sorry DebinGA, see the reason I gave to Paysee).

Perhaps someone else doesn't mind a little torture and will be willing to do listen to his cross again. I stopped listening around 25:15 on 11 April.

Sorry again folks.

 

[minor4th]

Hey there. I asked before and I'm sorry if I missed your answer, but where are you finding the BOP and the FBOP please? TIA :seeya:

Hi :seeya:

Sorry, what is BOP and FBOP?

 

[ColonelMustard]

bbm especially when it seems he's had a lot of experience in having to come up with fast explanations for his wrongdoings in his past. The intruder story is the most logical.

I agree, it's a no brainer. That's the first thing I'd say if I lived there.

 

[ColonelMustard]

Absolutely, but is there any doubt that he'll have a gun at hand whenever he's in a place he can't be seen? A gun is some sort of equalizer that compensates for his "little man" syndrome, and he feels naked and helpless without it .. in my totally unqualified to opine opinion.

Hmm...

 

[Karmady]

Hi :seeya:

Sorry, what is BOP and FBOP?

Bill of Particulars and Further Bill of Particulars. Sorry, I went a little acronym happy there lol

 

[ColonelMustard]

No problem. Shockingly after my correction, I looked it up anyway and found that they can get out on bail but it is rare and very hard to obtain. If you're in the US IDK if you remember the case of Dahlia Dippolito, who hired a 'police informer' hitman to kill her husband. Great case btw. Apparently though she was let out on bail after her conviction, again though, she lives in Florida




http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2013-04-19/news/fl-dalia-dippolito-appeal-filed-20130419_1_dalia-dippolito-michael-dippolito-new-trial

Yeah, gotta love Dahlia.

 

[ColonelMustard]

That was a great video, btw. Thank you for the link.

.. +1

 

[minor4th]

I've just done a quick 'at a glance' table showing witnesses testimony regarding the scream/talking/crying/help sounds. Feel free to use this for reference or modify as required.

I've erred on the side of caution and included a tick against Estelle Van der Merwe for both Reeva and OP's crying sounds, as she thought it was Reeva but her husband told her it was OP.

Thank you very much for that. It's interesting for sure.

 

[ColonelMustard]

This is an interesting interview with Kelly Phelps the day after the shooting and is apparantly what got her the CNN gig. It's very balanced so don't know what changed but to me it suggets Pistorius is on very shaky grounds when you consider the factors needed for a successful private defence.

Kelly Phelps from the UCT law faculty talk to us about self- defence (15.2.2013) - YouTube

Thanks for this. If I understand her correctly, OP is toast.