Trial Discussion Thread #34 - 14.05.06 Day 27

[shane13]

Did you catch the testimony about Carice telling Frank to not even look inside the house?

it's bad enough that she barred Security guard Baba (who might have known CPR) from entering. Now she, a lawyer, is forbidding others from even looking in.
And if she knows OP well and were neighbors, she would know Frank was OP's manservant and house guest.

 

[steveml]

RSBM

Steve, please forgive the snip, but it reminded me of a delicious moment during Nel's cross of OP. Nel accused OP of padding the list of things he supposedly did during the time Reeva had to have slipped away to the bathroom. Immediately, OP spoke up, reminding Nel in a "gotcha" tone that Samantha Taylor testified that it took 4 min. for him to put on his legs but actually he could do it in 30 sec., which, he volunteered, he'd just demonstrated to m'lady during the break. hahahaha

No worries :smile:

I haven't a clue how long it takes to be honest. I was just referring to Katy's post.

The time issue for OP's prosthesis only really becomes relevant if you believe that OP was on his stumps when he shot through the toilet door. I get the impression that many people are still not certain whether it was stumps/legs or gun/bat and/or a combination of them all.

 

[jay-jay]

That means I've NEVER heard of them. Ever.

That's what that means.

.. and which is totally beside the point to anything, really.

 

[Cherwell]

Thanks for that, but is Merwe that close to OP? Also, I think Stipp is one driveway over to the left.

I think you might be right about the Stipp house - there's just not quite enough visible at the top of the photo.
Going by memory of other plans I've seen, I think that the location of the van der Merwe house is correct.
I will repost the photo with an amended label.

There are several reasons I think OP had his legs on, but the main one is that imo he's psychologically incapable of doing battle with Mr. Intruder on his stumps if his legs were readily available. IIRC OP testified to feeling his way/balancing using his left hand against the left wall of the dark passage, right hand holding his cocked gun. Oh, and screaming so Mr. Intruder would know exactly where he was at the time. Come on, does anyone believe OP did or would do that, because I certainly don't? Ditto arguing with Reeva on his stumps.

I agree with you. I have seen no evidence that persuades me that OP wasn't wearing his prostheses throughout.

 

[minor4th]

You mean there is nothing to prove Motha's time stamp was right. The only time stamp proven right was Van Staden's.

The defense can not discredit a proven time stamp with an unproven time stamp.

And the photos do not prove that. They could have been taken shortly after Van Staden finished his initial round of photograhs.

But they couldn't have been taken after VS finished his initial photographs. They were taken before shell casings were marked, measured or collected - they were made before Botha collected the phones at 6:14, they were made before the gun was made safe and collected, and they were made before the cricket bat was moved or turned over.

 

[thewagesofsin]

How has Frank Chiziweni not been called to the stand? This trial has had everything but it's own Kato Kaelin and yet Franks been there for the asking all along. :dunno:

 

[Cherwell]

Coincidence or not, I think it takes a lot of guts to do what they did in court today.

It would be interesting to know how many women would be prepared to do that in a live court session, if they didn't really believe it to be true.

As it was so forcefully expressed on many occasions with regard to the PT witnesses...they have nothing to gain and why would they lie?

Perhaps I'm missing something here, but I've been puzzling over your comment BBM.

What did these witnesses do that required "guts"? As far as I can make out, they simply attempted an approximate rendering of sounds they heard. What's so brave about that? And why does it make a difference that they are women?

 

[Val1]

Mary Poppins big

Hopefully VS got a pic of it before it was stolen from the crime scene.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I think you might be right about the Stipp house - there's just not quite enough visible at the top of the photo.
Going by memory of other plans I've seen, I think that the location of the van der Merwe house is correct.




I agree with you. I have seen no evidence that persuades me that OP wasn't wearing his prostheses throughout.

The stipp's house is definitely the one that is to the left with the smaller width drive . It is built at the same angle as OP's so although it doesn't look like it it is directly opposite OP's toilet and bathroom window.
I saved a really good aerial photo from Google but don't think I can post it here without the link .

 

[44ALLAN]

I think it will be very important for Nel to map out and explain who heard what, and the possibilities of why.

For example, location of their rooms in their homes, open windows, out on balcony, other factors, etc

I will try to find time to do it as well this week.

lisa

He should also show the video of Roux with Rika Motshuane today it was classic lol.

She said the pitch of the 'man's' voice was high/very loud............then he was waiting for the screams but she continued talking and he had to stop her.............before we get there he said lol...............when I consulted with you ( he then waved his hand for several seconds prompting her to do the screams) dear god that was so fixed it was like watching the IPL cricket.
The Judges face was a picture for anyone else who saw that fiasco hahahahaha.

How the hell he thinks that will get past the judge etc is ludicrous to say the least

 

[steveml]

With regard to the blog link, it just shows how easy it is to make so few things seem like so many.

Here it is without the fudge...

OP got up, brought the fans in, covered a blue light, heard a noise, didn't see that Reeva had left the room, got his gun and went to the bathroom.

You can mention turning around at five different angles, feeling around the bedroom, not seeing this, not seeing that etc. etc. At the end of the day it's over-elaborating a few actions to make them appear inconceivable.

I've been in a room in daylight and somebody's left the room without me even knowing it. I bet we all have. Maybe it was something I said tho?

Either OP should have checked to see if Reeva was in the bed and didn't, or it's all a complete lie and he stalked after Reeva because he wanted to kill her.

Whichever you choose to believe I can't see how it was elaborate. An intruder killing isn't elaborate, and a spur of the moment rage killing certainly isn't.

 

[turaj]

So the witness said 'fiancee' and should have said 'girlfriend'.

I can't see the importance of this, unless I'm missing something.

Big difference between girlfriend and fiance...most people do not use the two interchangeably. I find it interesting and so did the neighbor as evidenced by their later conversation which he said "so this is the one?" I personally think he made it up and I think anyone wanting to bolster OP's case may do the same...want to show how much OP loved her and planned a future with her and so of course could have never killed her on purpose.
"

 

[Irisha]

Originally Posted by G.bng View Post
There are quite a few of us that think CH. I have read as much as I can find on SA law and IMO it seems the most likely but then it could be murder even if Masipa found he shot without reasonable cause or in reasonable response at a burglar.


I'm waaaaay behind( had grandaughter overnight). 1st wouldn't the judge find that it's not reasonable that Mr. Scaredy pants would fall asleep with his doorwall open and leave Reeva "at risk".

Wouldn't the judge consider it unreasonable that intruder/s can fly up to a 2nd level bathroom window. Since a moving a metal ladder up to a 2nd story window would make more noise than slamming a window?

Wouldn't a judge consider the high security community, patrols, home alarms, that would appear unreasonable that an intruder would choose Oscar scaredy pants place that has protective dogs.

Once you add all the other "odd" events together, I don't see that she has any other verdict. But this JMO


sounds:

Last night around 10pm EST USA I I rent a basement apt) I was downstairs with my grandaughter,8, had no school today. She was sleeping. I was kinda dozing, watching tv. Heard nothing. Today I went upstairs to talk to Sandy my landlady and she said around 10pm last night Mon. night she thought she heard something fall, she didn't get up to ,she had been really sick to her stomach:tantrum:. She got up this morning and noticed a rock in her living room floor, glass and found the hole in the double pane glass. She called the cops(I still at this point didn't know anything had happened:banghead They took the rock for fingerprints:floorlaugh: Now for the sounds, she was less than 20 feet from glass being broken and she thought something had fallen?I wanted to say what the **** could fall off the mantle. Yes she is old but very "with it" omg I guess not. The police did say this is happening everywhere, all the time. Parents pay attention !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Fuskier]

No mistake. He has many supporters who refuse to concede even the most obvious frailties in his 'version', and these people are driven by emotion IMHO, not by reality.

A UCT (University of Cape Town) senior lecturer in public law, Kelly Phelps, is one of these 'believers' - and this is an educated soul (allegedly). She is a fan girl DELUX and seemingly oblivious. (She believes Dixon kicked butt on the stand - when every other legal professional in South Africa is still laughing at what transpired) All education and common sense is shoveled aside when high emotion comes knocking.

Some folk are unable to separate emotion from the matters at hand.

Agree and well said. Question is: will he get away with murder because of other people's emotion-based beliefs? This is a 'murder' trial under South African Law. The rest of the world is watching, expecting that he is judged according to that Law.

 

[acejase]

I guess it's a case of looking at what was probably a spur of the moment panic situation. I don't think OP did what most people would have done in those circumstances. If we have to decide between the most likely scenario for OP not having time to put on his prosthesis which would it be?
Wouldn't it be more probable that he was in a rush to tackle an intruder rather than in a rush to kill Reeva?

If he had two minutes to put on his prosthesis and there was an intruder, in all probability they both would have been attacked.

OP was reckless in his actions, he should have got Reeva and himself away, and should have spoken to Reeva before doing anything.

...and yes, some people may well state the obvious that the outcome was absolutely devastating, but that doesn't alter the the likelihood of intention at that time.

it would be more probable to either get rs to hold the gun pointing towards the passage while he put his legs on or better still take her to the bedroom door behind him while he was pointing down the passageway with his gun allowing her to escape

 

[Gryffindor]

Ok - they have the records from Burger/Johnson cell phone providers. Johnson made them available.

Correct

 

[minor4th]

BBM

High pitched yes, but still sounded like a man and was not mistaken as a woman.

Exactly - so it must be that the ones identifying it as a woman screaming are mistaken. Right?

 

[Cherwell]

Thanks for that, but is Merwe that close to OP? Also, I think Stipp is one driveway over to the left.

Yes, you are right about the Stipp house. It barely makes a difference distance-wise, but the direction means that OP's bathroom squarely faces the Stipps. I have altered that detail.

I am fairly sure about the Motshuane house, but don't know who lives in the house beyond.

Also sure about the van der Merwe house, as there is, or was, no other house on that part of the street.

 

[minor4th]

Yes, you are right about the Stipp house. It barely makes a difference distance-wise, but the direction means that OP's bathroom squarely faces the Stipps. I have altered that detail.

I am fairly sure about the Motshuane house, but don't know who lives in the house beyond.

Also sure about the van der Merwe house, as there is, or was, no other house on that part of the street.

Question for anyone who remembers: Did Oscar say he screamed help, help, help from the sliding door/balcony or did he yell that from the open bathroom window?

 

[lithgow1]

With regard to the blog link, it just shows how easy it is to make so few things seem like so many.

Here it is without the fudge...

OP got up, brought the fans in, covered a blue light, heard a noise, didn't see that Reeva had left the room, got his gun and went to the bathroom.

You can mention turning around at five different angles, feeling around the bedroom, not seeing this, not seeing that etc. etc. At the end of the day it's over-elaborating a few actions to make them appear inconceivable.

I've been in a room in daylight and somebody's left the room without me even knowing it. I bet we all have. Maybe it was something I said tho?

Either OP should have checked to see if Reeva was in the bed and didn't, or it's all a complete lie and he stalked after Reeva because he wanted to kill her.

Whichever you choose to believe I can't see how it was elaborate. An intruder killing isn't elaborate, and a spur of the moment rage killing certainly isn't.

I can see sense in much of that steve but I think you are doing the opposite and over-pruning a bit, particularly the 'got his gun and went to the bathroom'. In Pistorius' version 'went to the bathroom' has lots more trimmings - faster, slower, shouting, screaming, peering around corners, thinking and then not thinking etc etc. Plus I can't buy his replies to Nel re the fans and LED light - it felt to me like he was determined to have never looked in her direction to the point where HE was the one coming up with all the moves to explain why he didn't see her. The 'turned this way and then turned that way' came from him IIRC.

I think you are also Australian? Remember The Castle? To me, though all that you say could be true, the 'vibe of the thing' is wrong. Not evidence I know but it's what accounted for my initial scepticism about his whole story.