Trial Discussion Thread #36 - 14.05.09 Day 29

[crasshopper]

Thank you all! Ciao for now.

 

[DebinGA]

Wollie was using OP's undamaged pantry door for his tests, not OP's WC door whose panels he most likely (imo) pummelled pre-murder. Wollie pointed to the energy of the bullet expended by passing through the wood, but wouldn't the energy/deflection be different if the formerly solid door was well-whacked and fibers broken first?

 

[Lochlynsmom]

Fair enough Lithgow


I think it is easiest to explain my view of Nel’s “questioning” style with a hypothetical since hypotheticals are so often used here, ie. “Oscar was a know -it -all about contracts and was schooling Reeva in contract negotiations Reeva teed him off by not acquiescing to his know-it-allness, which set her murder in motion”

Hypothetically, Nel being interrogated by Nel using Nel’s own words for the answers

Prosecutor; “What happened here?”

Nel; “Reeva was shot 3 times.”

Prosecutor; “What do we know of these shots Mr. Nel”

Nel; “One hit someone.”

Prosecutor; “Which is it Mr. Nel one hit someone or 3 hit Reeva.”

Nel; “A bullet hit Reeva in the hip.”

Prosecutor; “No Mr. Nel I must stop you. Your story cannot be true, (Heavy deep paternal sigh) what is it then did one bullet hit someone (then who?) or did three bullets hit Reeva, both cannot be true Mr. Nel”

Nel; “I understand that you like to be exact in your words I am not as precise.” (I have taken a smidgen of poetic license here with the word precise as I am not sure what word Nel used.)

Prosecutor; “No Mr. Nel I will not allow you make up a story, you just said one hit someone, who did it hit? Are you denying the words that you just said?”

Nel: “I…”

Prosecutor; “No Mr. Nel I cannot allow this, was it one bullet or three bullets, why are you changing your story. What is the truth Mr. Nel, the truth! “

Nel; “Four bullets were shot through a toilet door.”

Prosecutor; “Really now, Mr. Nel, I must stop you if you refuse to tell the truth, is it 4 bullets, 3 bullets or one bullet, is it a toilet door, someone or Reeva, you are making it up as you go along, let us move on since you cannot get your story straight. Let us move on to the curtains. Let us talk about the balcony curtains that you opened”

Nel; “I am not exact in my words.”

Prosecutor; “We know that Mr. Nel, you are not exact because it suits your impossible story to be inexact, but I won’t allow it. Were the curtains pulled before they were parted or when someone was shot with one or three or four black talon bullets or are you blaming everything on the Zombie?”

Nel;

Prosecutor; “Mr. Nel you seem to pay a peculiar attention to your nose, are you perchance related to Pinocchio?”

Nel; “What?”

Prosecutor ; “You have no answers do you Mr. Nel”

Nel; “That’s correct Milady.”


***

So if you view my opinion of Nel as based in emotion I can't argue with that as it is your opinion. My view is that Nel uses tactics that have been demonstrated to get a false confession in police interrogations.

I guess it is all a matter of perspective.

bbm- why not use a transcript of a portion of questioning you find offensive verses making something up?

 

[sleuth-d-]

Yes he does that too but not always. I have seen Nel change where he was going suddenly and then half way through suddenly decide he wants to leave that, maybe because he's not up to speed to go there at that point, and then say he "we'll deal with that" and never bring it up again. I am just not sure if part of his technique or he is simply absent minded.

i find it hard to believe he is absent minded. quite the opposite imo.

 

[JudgeJudi]

A double amputee walking on his stumps

Someone posted this up-thread or on the last thread and I've just watched it. This guy is probably much the same age as OP and his stumps appear to be exactly the same length. Plenty of people have commented how wobbly OP probably is etc etc. It's just under 2 minutes long. You must see this.

Double Amputee Dwayne - Stumps walking on concrete - YouTube

 

[patCee]

My favourite line from Nel whilst looking at the length and breadth of the board.

"this is.....er.....er.....a board"

 

[DebinGA]

i find it hard to believe he is absent minded. quite the opposite imo.

Absolutely, especially given the unfair SA rules where the prosecutor doesn't get to see the defense evidence until presented at trial. Wollie has been able to pour over Mangena's report for over a year.

 

[Lochlynsmom]

I do hope they remodelled the bathroom/toilet area before it was sold.......ewwwww!

From the looks of the doors, the window, light not working, broken air conditioning and hot tub not functioning seems the whole place had to be retrofitted.

 

[atthelake]

Hippity skippity day from North Carolina.

Congratulations on your 1,000th post! :seeya:

 

[JudgeJudi]

I think the bullet trajectory was slightly downward, so if he was kneeling I think (I'm not sure) that would make him too low .. I personally think he was on his prosthesis and either crouched like he does in his zombie stopper vid or he shot from the hip (although I don't think he would've been able to shoot so accurately with one hand, so I'm going for the former i.e. crouching). I'm almost certain in my own mind that he had his prosthetic legs on that night.

I've thought this for a long time mainly because I've only seen people trained in the use of firearms hold their arms out in front of them as OP does in the watermelon video.

 

[liesbeth]

Yes he does that too but not always. I have seen Nel change where he was going suddenly and then half way through suddenly decide he wants to leave that, maybe because he's not up to speed to go there at that point, and then say he "we'll deal with that" and never bring it up again. I am just not sure if part of his technique or he is simply absent minded.

It's lawyer speak and it means "Let's change the subject." Roux did it too. Remember his: "But..We'll get back to that." It bothered me too at first. A friend explained that if the issue is important it will be "gotten back to" by the opposing party during cross- or re-examination.

 

[Lochlynsmom]

Absolutely, especially given the unfair SA rules where the prosecutor doesn't get to see the defense evidence until presented at trial. Wollie has been able to pour over Mangena's report for over a year.

A lot of good that did them lol! I am still shocked that this is the best they could come up with...

 

[DebinGA]

A double amputee walking on his stumps

That video has certainly eye-opening. Thanks, Judgejudi.

 

[JudgeJudi]

one thing that comes across clearly, and without ambiguity. is the sound test the defence did was a complete furphy, everything went wrong. the gun jammed , every time, the cricket bat re guns couldn't get up to decibel level, and all up, for sure it isn't gonna be played in court. the only thing left is the scream test that Roux promised he did with Oscar ,and that test would prove, Roux promised , that Oscar can and does scream like a woman.

its on the record, Roux has to produce it.

If OP's scream test is played methinks Masipa will say, "Will the people who made that noise please leave the courtroom" whereupon all present will get up and leave.

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

 

[DebinGA]

Thinking about the things Roux "promised", I believe Outwage read OP's plea statement aloud in court, but did he or Roux also give an opening statement, as in America, where the defense states the things they intend to show/prove?

OP's plea statement read by Outwage: http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2014/03/world/document-pistorius-plea-statement/

 

[liesbeth]

I've thought this for a long time mainly because I've only seen people trained in the use of firearms hold their arms out in front of them as OP does in the watermelon video.

Forensic expert Cobus Steyl on the Oscar Trial 199 Channel

Shots:
If you shoot four shots quickly with the pistol in one hand (without using your other hand to help you aim) each subsequent shot will end up a little higher than the one before.

Shot A was low and B was higher. But C and D is close together and lower again. This is not a random grouping of shots. And you have to either stop and bring the firearm down again or you need to use your other arm to steady the pistol. To get the grouping of shots on the door, you have to aim.

He also says that if the shots were fired quickly they would have been grouped closer together on Reeva's body. Hip, stomach, chest, head. The defense says she was falling, but Steyl says even if she was falling, her head was close to the toilet so it still needs time for her to fall.

Screams:
Nothing Steyl heard from the defense so far would have stopped Reeva from screaming. So screaming possible.

Wolmarans:
Steyl says Wolmarans is not done yet. So give him a chance. (All I say to that is eish, Mr Steyl, eish.)

 

[Val1]

Wollie was using OP's undamaged pantry door for his tests, not OP's WC door whose panels he most likely (imo) pummelled pre-murder. Wollie pointed to the energy of the bullet expended by passing through the wood, but wouldn't the energy/deflection be different if the formerly solid door was well-whacked and fibers broken first?

That's something I had asked too... on the upside, some of us heard W. say something about one of the bullets were fired after the door was broken.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Forensic expert Cobus Steyl on the Oscar Trial 199 Channel

Shots:
If you shoot four shots quickly with the pistol in one hand (without using your other hand to help you aim) each subsequent shot will end up a little higher than the one before.

Shot A was low and B was higher. But C and D is close together and lower again. This is not a random grouping of shots. And you have to either stop and bring the firearm down again or you need to use your other arm to steady the pistol. To get the grouping of shots on the door, you have to aim.

He also says that if the shots were fired quickly they would have been grouped closer together on Reeva's body. Hip, stomach, chest, head. The defense says she was falling, but Steyl says even if she was falling, her head was close to the toilet so it still needs time for her to fall.

Screams:
Nothing Steyl heard from the defense so far would have stopped Reeva from screaming. So screaming possible.

Wolmarans:
Steyl says Wolmarans is not done yet. So give him a chance. (All I say to that is eish, Mr Steyl, eish.)

Very interesting, thank you. Gershwell Brooks says he is trying to speak to him and a number of people wonder why he wasn't used by the Defense. From what he seems to have said, if he had been used, it would have sealed OP's fate. No doubt the reason why he wasn't used.

 

[whiterum]

Mr Nel fanclub on facebook -->> https://www.facebook.com/GerrieNel.RSA .. I've just liked and followed :-D

Oh brilliant , thanks jay-jay ! :dance:

 

[liesbeth]

Absolutely, especially given the unfair SA rules where the prosecutor doesn't get to see the defense evidence until presented at trial. Wollie has been able to pour over Mangena's report for over a year.

Usually they do give each other the information out of courtesy.

They way I understand it, and I may be wrong, is that one of the reasons Nel charged Oscar with premeditated murder, or rather murder under sections 6 and 51, is that under section 6 you do not get bail unless there are exceptional circumstances (medical reasons) or if you give a statement explaining what happened.

Oscar refused to talk to the police before the bail hearing. But in order to be considered for bail under a section 6 murder charge, he decided to give a statement. And now he's bound to that statement and he can't change his story too much. Clever of Nel.