Trial Discussion Thread #36 - 14.05.09 Day 29

[Carmelita]

Can NPD ever be viewed as true mental illness rather than a "condition"? If the psychologist were to come up with that diagnosis, will OP get off with a lighter sentence than a "normal" person, though I don't ever feel anyone can be considered truly normal if they can commit murder.

NPD is considered a disorder. I can only speak of here in the United States but having a mental disorder in and of itself is never enough to get a lighter sentence, it can be used in the mitigation process after a guilty verdict and it might have an effect on sentencing or the place where a person will be placed after sentencing such as the psych ward or in with general population jail/prison.

Here you are either competent or incompetent to stand trial. If you are incompetent there is no trial. Some states have laws that allow people that are deemed incompetent at the moment to stand trial, to later stand trial if they are later through medications, made competent and can still be tried and convicted of their crimes. We have "Not guilty by reason of insanity" and "Guilty but mentally Ill" laws.

After John Hinkely shot President Reagan, Reagan's press secretary and a secret service agent and Hinkley was put in a locked psych hospital but considered to be a candidate for release if the medications restored him to "sanity" a lot of our laws became much stricter when it came to competency (insanity) defenses.

 

[Gryffindor]

That is interesting because I met a woman yesterday at Starbucks. She ws speaking with a SA accent so I began talking to her about the trial. LOL

Anyhow, she had been closely following it because she had recently lived in Pretoria. I asked her what she thought had happened. She said a similar scenario to yours. She thought they argued and RS went to another room to sleep. And possibly he did accidentally think intruder. OR perhaps he was angry and snapped.

I asked her why RS would stay and sleep in another room--why wouldn't she just leave. And this lady reminded me that a woman all alone would not want to go driving around Pretoria late at night. She said it is just not done if one can help it. So if RS became scared of him that night, she would call the police before leaving on her own, perhaps.

Aww thank you for that :-D That's really interesting to know. It was just a random scenario that popped into my head.

 

[nastasya]

Yes, that is by far the best stand-alone piece of evidence against OP's version IMHO. This was raised here at WS well before that article - by Jake18 and others. Saayman said "a few more breaths after the head shot", and even the DT’s own witness, Jan Botha, said "death ensued very quickly after sustaining the head injury” (note: these are not exact quotes). Very powerful statements uncontested (and even endorsed) by the DT.

Pistorius said at trial "She was sitting with her weight on top of the toilet bowl. I checked to see if she was breathing and she wasn't … I pulled her weight on to me and I sat there crying for some time. I felt her head on my shoulder and I could feel the blood running down me. … I thought I felt her breathing. I could see her arm was broken. … I was trying to pick Reeva up. I could see she was still breathing. She was struggling to breathe.”

From the affidavit “I put on my prosthetic legs, ran back to the bathroom and tried to kick the toilet door open. I think I must then have turned on the lights. I went back into the bedroom and grabbed my cricket bat to bash open the toilet door. A panel or panels broke off and I found the key on the floor and unlocked and opened the door. Reeva was slumped over but alive.”

So from affidavit to trial, OP has been consistent on this point.

From first bangs to "she was still breathing" we’re talking about what, a time interval from 3:00 - 3:15, 3:00 - 3:20? That simply isn’t possible if the only shots fired are in the 3:00 am zone - as the DT wants us to believe - given the statements by the two pathologists, who have not been challenged on this.

Now the DT has tried to push those “first shots” out to 3:05 or something. That’s my recollection. Maybe they are dimly aware of the glaring problem here.

What’s amazing is Nel hasn’t pounded the table on this. Why not? We have people sipping coffee at keyboards figuring his out while Nel is busy spraying mist at laser beams. Very strange.

The article misses the most glaring point - there was relatively little blood on the bathroom floor.

She was not shot at 3:05 and and still breathing at 3:17 when OP claims to have finally broken down the door.

This means all the screams people heard were Reeva's, not OP, and means that he killed her in cold blood.

 

[DebinGA]

Nel tried to get Wollie to admit OP must have moved from his initial position near the passage to further into the bathroom as he fired, but Wollie didn't agree iirc. Wollie claimed OP didn't have to move anything but his hand position to hit all 4 spots in the door. Hopefully, Nel and Mangena will convincingly challenge that on Monday.

 

[Carmelita]

Seriously???

How do you describe this?

It's not only a tight grouping, but an incredibly tight grouping all aimed directly at Reeva's head, with the exception of the first shot.

It defies all rational thinking to conclude that these shots were randomly fired in a state of terror, in the dark, not having any idea where the "intruder" was hiding and all ended up being aimed right at the "intruder's" heard.

This is a tight grouping

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct...xmL1Yg2741Q5E0xKmxSKmohQ&ust=1399850122877903





I simply don't see how anyone can see Oscar's shots as a tight grouping. Oscar was feet away his shots are wild not tight.

 

[katydid23]

This is a tight grouping

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct...xmL1Yg2741Q5E0xKmxSKmohQ&ust=1399850122877903





I simply don't see how anyone can see Oscar's shots as a tight grouping. Oscar was feet away his shots are wild not tight.

If they were wild, he would not have not his target, 3 out of 4 times.

 

[Viper]

RSBM

I simply don't see how anyone can see Oscar's shots as a tight grouping. Oscar was feet away his shots are wild not tight.

I know. And you disagree with Wollie if his words go against yours. Post an image of a tight grouping fired at a screaming woman locked in a closet where the shooter cannot see what he is targeting, he can only hear it.

Here, I will do it for you...

 

[Carmelita]

You don't think that's a tight grouping for a man on his stumps in the dark with only one hand on a gun which he wasn't aiming?.
Give me strength, if he fired that gun as he say's he did those bullet's would have gone all over the show.

Oscar has incredible upper body strength and is very familiar with firing a gun and no I do not think that it is a tight grouping even with all things considered.

 

[Karmady]

This is a tight grouping

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct...xmL1Yg2741Q5E0xKmxSKmohQ&ust=1399850122877903





I simply don't see how anyone can see Oscar's shots as a tight grouping. Oscar was feet away his shots are wild not tight.

I agree. That is not a tight grouping at such extremely close range, imo.

 

[Carmelita]

If they were wild, he would not have not his target, 3 out of 4 times.

It was a tiny room, she was almost immediately a stationary target it is not surprising that he hit her with 3 possibly 4 of the bullets.

 

[katydid23]

Oscar has incredible upper body strength and is very familiar with firing a gun and no I do not think that it is a tight grouping even with all things considered.

He says he was firing with one hand, arm bent, not aiming, not thinking, in a panic and in fear for his life, and leaning against the wall for support and he hits his target 3 out of 4 times, and you think it was not a tight grouping, all considered?

 

[Hope4More]

If they were wild, he would not have not his target, 3 out of 4 times.

Errrrrrr.......Four shots into a teeny tiny space with great odds of ricochet hits? It would've been astonishly terrible shooting if more than one bullet didn't hit whoever was behind the door.

 

[Ncl1968]

Your example of tight grouping comes from a circle that is not moving... Reeva was not a circle and she was moving.. Until Oscar ended that...

 

[Karmady]

It was a tiny room, she was almost immediately a stationary target it is not surprising that he hit her with 3 possibly 4 of the bullets.

Right. And the exact opposite argument is made regarding premeditation -- i.e., he HAD to know he was going to kill whomever was behind the door because they were a sitting duck. In fact, I think it's been made within the past two pages.

jmo

 

[katydid23]

Errrrrrr.......Four shots into a teeny tiny space with great odds of ricochet hits? It would've been astonishly terrible shooting if more than one bullet didn't hit whoever was behind the door.

But he didn't hit her with many ricochets. He hit her in the head with the third or fourth shot.

 

[Fuskier]

I'm extremely impressed with Masipa. I've been sufficiently interested to read as much as I can about her and she's a dedicated individual held in high regard by those who know her. I've always admired people who've worked hard to achieve their goals and those who have the courage of their convictions. This is such an important trial for SA for many reasons and I believe she'll put everything into it to bring down a verdict that's fair and just.

One of the assessors Masipa has chosen sounds like an exceptional person to help shoulder this heavy burden. Janet Henzen-du Toit is "an expert in criminal justice, has Honours degree in psychology and Master's degree in criminal justice and criminal prosecution. She is working on a doctorate in criminal law, criminal prosecution, evidence and constitutional interpretation".

Sounds like a pretty good team to me.

http://www.mediaclubsouthafrica.com...ors-can-decide-pistorius-s-fate#ixzz31KOAkadY

BBM. Thank you for this info Judgejudi, That is reassuring IMO.

 

[james83]

Oscar has incredible upper body strength and is very familiar with firing a gun and no I do not think that it is a tight grouping even with all things considered.

Upper body strength mean's nothing if you can't balance properly.
How many bullets do you suppose Oscar has ever fired on his stump's with one hand?.

 

[Carmelita]

I know. And you disagree with Wollie if his words go against yours. Post an image of a tight grouping fired at a screaming woman locked in a closet where the shooter cannot see what he is targeting, he can only hear it.

Here, I will do it for you...

I disagree with Woolie on this point because he is wrong.


The picture that you posted of Reeva's head is an unnecessary use of the image.

 

[Karmady]

But he didn't hit her with many ricochets. He hit her in the head with the third or fourth shot.

The fact that she was hit in the head is, imo, just very bad happenstance. He was shooting always at the middle of the door vertically speaking. You would not have expected anyone other than maybe someone actually using the toilet to have their head anywhere near that level. Neither an intruder nor Reva escaping from Oscar in hot pursuit would have had their head at mid-door level. jmo

 

[Karmady]

I disagree with Woolie on this point because he is wrong.


The picture that you posted of Reeva's head is an unnecessary use of the image.

It's a "there, this will shut you up" argument, imo. I can't stand those.