Trial Discussion Thread #36 - 14.05.09 Day 29

[Dphil]

Hello everyone, found this thread and have been an avid reader for ages. Joined to say thank you to all of you for keeping me up to date as I work full time so it's difficult to keep on top of things.

It's easy to become desensitised to what's gone on and to hear defence witnesses as if OP's version is correct.

I did watch the trial when he was on and if this was a 'normal' guy on trial this case would have been over once he went on the stand IMO.

His contradictions throughout his testimony - against his evidence in chief and his evidence on the day - even within each minute was ridiculous.

I personally don't think he'll get convicted of pre-med. Not because I don't think he knew it was Reeva - but because of his position in society. Sad but true.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I'm not so sure .. I was absolutely stunned by the way he changed his opinion about Reeva sitting on the magazine rack .. he initially said, in no uncertain terms, that she would've been sitting on it and then later, after an adjournment, he then said she was sitting on the floor (and I dearly hope that the DT had not consulted with him during that adjournment for him to so drastically have changed his, previously fairly firm, opinion on that).

Do you remember how quickly after he changed his view on Reeva being sat on the floor was it that Nel asked to finish for the day ?
Could this be the reason why he wanted the break for the weekend .
You would have to think Nel would have been troubled or suspicious by such a turn around in testimony

 

[DebinGA]

Thanks Debin, that's an interesting article. You mentioned in your original post, that OP had hired this company to create an animated reconstruction, but (snipped)

I was wondering where you heard this?

Thanks for your reply.

Just a guess from my inner sleuth.

 

[TorisMom003]

Hello everyone, found this thread and have been an avid reader for ages. Joined to say thank you to all of you for keeping me up to date as I work full time so it's difficult to keep on top of things.

It's easy to become desensitised to what's gone on and to hear defence witnesses as if OP's version is correct.

I did watch the trial when he was on and if this was a 'normal' guy on trial this case would have been over once he went on the stand IMO.

His contradictions throughout his testimony - against his evidence in chief and his evidence on the day - even within each minute was ridiculous.

I personally don't think he'll get convicted of pre-med. Not because I don't think he knew it was Reeva - but because of his position in society. Sad but true.

:welcome:

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Thanks for posting the link. Interesting article.

Wasn't one of the first actions of OP's entourage following the shooting to get the keys to his safe so that they could remove articles including a memory stick with details of his financial affairs?

I have always found his priorities following the shooting disturbing.

* Get a lawyer - check!
* Remove details of financial affairs - check!
*Hire a PR company - check!
*Inform the family of the 'love of your life' that you have shot her dead in a 'terrible accident' - nah!

Yes they requested a lock smith open one of the safes but I can't say for sure that it was the one with the dongle in but have a strong feeling it was. Oldwage was present with OP's sister .
With regard to his self preservation after the shooting ,it does make himself look very bad IMO and I have to confess whilst I try not to let it affect my objectivity about evidence submitted I think it does a little .

 

[Suthrnqt]

Hello everyone, found this thread and have been an avid reader for ages. Joined to say thank you to all of you for keeping me up to date as I work full time so it's difficult to keep on top of things.

It's easy to become desensitised to what's gone on and to hear defence witnesses as if OP's version is correct.

I did watch the trial when he was on and if this was a 'normal' guy on trial this case would have been over once he went on the stand IMO.

His contradictions throughout his testimony - against his evidence in chief and his evidence on the day - even within each minute was ridiculous.

I personally don't think he'll get convicted of pre-med. Not because I don't think he knew it was Reeva - but because of his position in society. Sad but true.

Welcome. Take your shoes off and stay awhile.

:balloons:
:wagon:

 

[lithgow1]

Hello everyone, found this thread and have been an avid reader for ages. Joined to say thank you to all of you for keeping me up to date as I work full time so it's difficult to keep on top of things.

It's easy to become desensitised to what's gone on and to hear defence witnesses as if OP's version is correct.

I did watch the trial when he was on and if this was a 'normal' guy on trial this case would have been over once he went on the stand IMO.

His contradictions throughout his testimony - against his evidence in chief and his evidence on the day - even within each minute was ridiculous.

I personally don't think he'll get convicted of pre-med. Not because I don't think he knew it was Reeva - but because of his position in society. Sad but true.

Welcome - I'm pretty new myself but have found it both a great resource for info and a way to share thoughts about the trial with fellow enthusiasts. I'd like to think and hope though that you are wrong re the sentence. I think if he doesn't get the highest murder charge it will be more because of a lack of direct evidence of an argument other than the one witness who heard a woman's voice arguing in the lead up to the shooting. But his position in society is pretty low these days I'd say. His family still support him, and he has his Pistorians, but I think overall most people have a very low opinion of him. Those who have only followed the trial via the news tend to think him guilty because of the ludicrous story and the majority of those who follow it much more closely think he is guilty for a multitude of reasons. So, nice to 'meet' you and I hope you are totally wrong!

 

[Karmady]

Saying you don't care doesn't mean you aren't rationalizing his actions. I do not see anything that is condescending.

You say it is reasonable for OP to not call the ambulance given the facts.

And lets look at the facts. His loved one just got shot four times. And he calls his mate. Doesn't call ambulance. And you trying to argue if your loved one had the same facts, you would do the same.

Looks like rationalizing to me.

Actually, I didn't say it was reasonable. I said it wasn't unfathomable to me and explained why. It can take the conversation way off track when people's posts are mischaracterized imo.

That said, regardless of what it looks like to you. It isn't.

 

[katydid23]

Yes by his account he was. Again it is only Oscar's claim that after he heard the noise in the toilet which he perceived as an intruder opening the door does Oscar claim that he acted without thinking.

How can he claim that he was acting w/out thinking upon hearing the noise? He was absolutely 'thinking' about something when he shot 4x through that door, successfully hitting the target 3 out of 4 times. He was trying to kill the source of that noise. No doubt about that. It is a joke that he now claims he was 'not thinking' when he pulled that trigger.

 

[sicknote]

If the judge believes the neighbours in regards to arguing, blood curdling screams and screaming can OP escape the premed charge?

 

[Interested Bystander]

Yes they requested a lock smith open one of the safes but I can't say for sure that it was the one with the dongle in but have a strong feeling it was. Oldwage was present with OP's sister .
With regard to his self preservation after the shooting ,it does make himself look very bad IMO and I have to confess whilst I try not to let it affect my objectivity about evidence submitted I think it does a little .

Oldwage must have known this was not right but did nothing about it! I believe he is a family "friend"/lawyer. It is this type of relationship that worries me when it comes to strange legal situations, such as OP on a Murder 6 charge and yet gets bail and all his bail requirements removed in short order. Smacks of interference along the line somewhere, to me.

 

[Feynman]

I think one of my favourites was several months ago when OP version 1.0 was the 'real' one.

Some people on another board made the very sensible point that OP dashing off to shoot the intruder without even checking whether Reeva was still in bed was either outrageous or utterly incredible. (On a side note, I am sure the widespread scoffing which this provoked was the reason for OP version 2.0 where all of a sudden he remembers that he spoke to Reeva)

Anyway, Back to OP version 1.0 - someone on the board actually posted something along the lines of:

"Well Oscar obviously cared for Reeva so much that he didn't want to wake her up and worry her".

Hmmm. Absolutely.

Even in OP 1.0 it's not "utterly incredible" because it happened recently in SA:

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Man-who-shot-wife-in-error-can-sympathise-with-Oscar-20140407

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Oldwage must have known this was not right but did nothing about it! I believe he is a family "friend"/lawyer. It is this type of relationship that worries me when it comes to strange legal situations, such as OP on a Murder 6 charge and yet gets bail and all his bail requirements removed in short order. Smacks of interference along the line somewhere, to me.

I remember a Police officer with higher rank at the scene, also a family friend and there "for caring" on OP?

 

[lithgow1]

If the judge believes the neighbours in regards to arguing, blood curdling screams and screaming can OP escape the premed charge?

From my understanding, no. If M'lady believes the state's ear witnesses, it will be taken that OP knew who he was firing at. I'm putting a lot of faith in Judge Greenland's statement that it's not just a matter of putting forward a believable story - the court itself must then believe that version and the judge pointed out that you have independent witnesses who testified to hearing a woman's screams before the shooting. Hope that helps.

 

[Gryffindor]

If the judge believes the neighbours in regards to arguing, blood curdling screams and screaming can OP escape the premed charge?

Once he began shooting, he stated the ringing in his ears made him unable to hear anything. So, yes.

However, when Nel asked if he heard screaming (Reeva) , he replied, "No." If his prior assertion were true, his reply SHOULD have been, "I don't know as I couldn't hear anything from being deafened by firing gunshots."

 

[whiterum]

[/B]


BBM That 's really strange and also there were lots of phone and whatsup messages between them on 13 Feb which apparently indicated that OP wanted Reeva to stay with him but Reeva either mentioned she would return Joburg at 03 p.m or offered him to spend time with family or in another message said she was going home and asked him to stay where he was..

There was no mention of Reeva's cinema programme with her friends on the messages (could be on phone though ) but we knew last year that OP was aware of that when he dropped by JD's who offered him a boys party out while the girls would go out for cinema.. Then probably he called Reeva for a quiet (!) dinner at home and only then at abt 4-5 pm Reeva seems to change her mind and stay.

12:11. Reeva ...... go Joburg at 03:00. pm
13:10 OP .......... stay tonight if you'd like.
13:10 Reeva ... consoling about the hurdle.
15:21. OP .... finishing at Ryan
15:21. Reeva. .... Thank you. suggests some family time with Ryan or Carl.
15:41 Oscar calls Reeva
15:46. Reeva.... I'm going home at 6:00 pm .Pls.stay.
15:54 Oscar calls Reeva.
17:12 Oscar calls Reeva.
17:44 Reeva calls Oscar .... different tower than house
18:00 Reeva's footage entering the estate.


Just speculation here . . Could it be that OP was unaware of Reeva's programme with the girls and he got furious when he learned that and maybe with his paranoia and extreme jealosy he thought that Reeva was trying to persuade him to stay and even offering a family time and was hiding that she would go out to the cinema ..
Maybe he suspected that they would go partying after and who else was included in that programme maybe rugby stay FH ?? And he refused going our with the boys and persuadded Reeva to stay .. Could that be a reason for the argument that escalated to be a motive for the murder?


JMO

Yes indeed MS , great post! I think this got up his nose that day and adding the other factors into the equation, probably harbouring jealousy over Reeva 's TV show airing that weekend and the coffee with her ex a few days earlier. IMO this combination added to his jealous paranoia and set him off on one that night.

Poor Reeva, it's a pity she did not go out with her friends that night.

 

[lithgow1]

Once he began shooting, he stated the ringing in his ears made him unable to hear anything. So, yes.

However, when Nel asked if he heard screaming (Reeva) , he replied, "No." If his prior assertion were true, his reply SHOULD have been, "I don't know as I couldn't hear anything from being deafened by firing gunshots."

I don't see how OP not hearing the screams will get him off if the neighbours who heard screams before the shooting are believed.

PS - we both answered sicknote's question at the same time and gave completely opposite answers! So what do you think now sicknote?

 

[MsMarple]

This will probably sound dumb, but what the heck ... Try to imagine Reeva somewhat facing the wc door and the first bullet hitting and demolishing her right hip bone, would she have twisted to her left as Wolmarans demonstrated or to her right as I think I would have? Or not twisted at all, but immediately fell or was propelled back onto mag rack?

IMO it's not dumb at all. I think Wolmarans is correct that she twisted to her left. The bullet likely wouldn't have had enough force to push or propel her but the injury to her hip would have caused her to shift her balance to the left leg, thus twisting her body in that direction. That momentum was enough to make her drop a bit backwards and onto the magazine rack. I'm not convinced about Wolmaran's change to her dropping to the floor though.... :moo:

 

[Deleted member 102539]

i would be very interested in hearing the contents of that 66 second call.

To the ominous Frank? "Come now, immediately. I will open the front door slightly. Come upstairs! Don't ask me!"

(Honestly, at this moment I don't know, what time the call was made.)

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Oldwage must have known this was not right but did nothing about it! I believe he is a family "friend"/lawyer. It is this type of relationship that worries me when it comes to strange legal situations, such as OP on a Murder 6 charge and yet gets bail and all his bail requirements removed in short order. Smacks of interference along the line somewhere, to me.

I never expected him to get bail and was stunned when he did and especially after I read about another double amputee that was denied bail for fraud for such a long time .

The dongle being removed from the scene troubled me as much as the phone TBH and then recently finding out about Reeva's bag leaves me almost speechless .
I don't think We have never heard what happened to the dongle after it was removed . Maybe this was used for the alleged tax investigation and subsequent fine ,although I must point out I have only read this in press reports so don't know how true that information is .