Trial Discussion Thread #37 - 14.05.12 Day 30

[Mr Fossil]

@ Viper - I can assure you that it is 30 days.

From http://www.justice.gov.za/legislation/acts/1977-051.pdf

79 (2) (a) The court may for the purposes of the relevant enquiry commit the
accused to a psychiatric hospital or to any other place designated by the court, for
such periods, not exceeding thirty days at a time, as the court may from time to
time determine, and where an accused is in custody when he is so committed, he
shall, while he is so committed, be deemed to be in the lawful custody of the person
or the authority in whose custody he was at the time of such committal.

 

[Trooper]

While Vorster was giving her testimony, in all the excitement, it didn't dawn on me that she had done her interviews.. I use the term loosely, THIS MAY.. not last May!!.. a week ago!.. this has well and truly floored me.. after Oscar was on the stand, after Botha, after Dixon, ... Yvette the social worker must have been roped in to fill in time for Vorster to make some sort of written report..

She must have been bought into this case because of the prosecution evidence and Oscars testifying disaster..

 

[MissJ]

Sometimes in the USA when someone has committed a crime they are ordered for a 30 day evaluation to determine if they NGRI (not guilty by reason of insanity). I worked in forensic psychiatry for years. There aren't many hospitals in the US that I know about where they do that eval but Tennessee does have psych units that do them.It is different than a 72 hour hold because the 72 hour hold in the US is specifically to see if they are an immediate threat to themselves or others.

 

[JudgeJudi]

I remember dogs being a staple in restaurants when I was stationed in Germany.

ETA: No, no, no..... dogs were not on the menu, but rather by their masters feet. :floorlaugh:

Gosh, we can't take ours anywhere in Oz. Only on beaches very, very early in the morning or late afternoon, never in shops, department stores, restaurants, buses, trains, taxis, the majority of parks. The list is endless, and this is supposed to be a dog-loving country!!! The only exceptions are seeing eye dogs. I don't understand it at all.

 

[Nausicaa]

Hi Nausicaa!

Regarding the BIB... Nel threw down the gauntlet on this. He told the court that if roux needed to redirect before Nel could submit the application, fine, and he turned the witness over to roux. Masipa stepped in and asked Nel to reconsider, which he did. But by releasing the psychiatrist to roux Nel was saying that's it, finish up with her so that I can get my application submitted to the Court. Nel did not want, and I believe does not expect, the psychiatrist to change her testimony. Respectfully, only OP does that.

Hi Viper - I think you're misreading this one but you're sure proving you're not Barnacle :smile:. The shrink has not been dismissed yet. Of course she won't change her testimony, but you may find that she explains it in such a way that there is very little left.

Don't forget that OP would hate like hell to have any doubts cast on his sanity and he is paying the piper.

 

[Viper]

Hey Viper, I thought it was 3 days too, but just saw this.

"In an unexpected twist, state prosecutor Gerrie Nel told the court he would consider filing an application for the athlete to be referred for 30 days of psychiatric evaluation at a state mental hospital in South Africa".

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ng-athlete-for-mental-evaluation-9356618.html

But it also says: "If approved, Pistorius could spend up to 30 days in observation at a mental health institution".

Yes there are laws that protect a person from being unduely confined for an extended period of time. Freedom is precious and it is protected. Even if a person would be safer to themselves (suicide) if they were to remain confined for longer than 72 hours, if the healthcare professionals that interview, observe, and treat them do not have a solid reason to extend the confinement they must be released. Many are released even before the 72 hours because some states have laws that in essence say that once a person starts to act of a sound mind they must be released.

The law in SA appears to have a maximum confinement of 30 days, and perhaps Mr. Nel changed his mind and will request a 30 day observation, but I doubt that very much. All Mr. Nel wants of this is to follow the law, have OP evaluated for 72 hours, and have the doctor(s) that observe OP come back to the Court and dismiss that his mental illness of general anxiety disorder has any relevance to diminished capacity for his crime of Premeditated Murder.

 

[ColonelMustard]

what a day of tremendous legal sword fighting and rapier work..


you cant go wrong for sheer intrigue when you mix a psychiatrist with a 2 barristers.. it just doesn't get more intense than that.

(to be sung) ..a psychiatrist with a 2 barristers, a double amputee ...and a partridge in a pear tree.

 

[JudgeJudi]

I'll tell you who I think is one of the strongest, most amazing members of the PT is the woman who sits to Nel's left. She knows exactly where he is, where is going, what he needs, and what he's thinking - even before he does!

I've been watching her all during the trial and am so impressed.

As she's not wearing robes, this would be Nel's instructing solicitor, as we call them in our country. They work on a case from it's inception until counsel are retained, and so they've probably worked as a team since the bail application. She would know every bit about the case as Nel, would put the brief together and so on and so forth.

 

[lithgow1]

Just saw Robyn Curnow on CNN, live, and though the anchor introduced her with some comment on the state calling for OP to be evaluated she ignored that completely. Didn't mention it and the brief report focused entirely on the 'excuses for Oscar' part of the psychiatrist's testimony under direct. They're such a joke on this story.

 

[JudgeJudi]

do they not check [pre-trial] that the accused is [medically/mentally] fit to stand trial in sa?

The defence obviously thought this wasn't the case.

 

[zoran]

Just saw Robyn Curnow on CNN, live, and though the anchor introduced her with some comment on the state calling for OP to be evaluated she ignored that completely. Didn't mention it and the brief report focused entirely on the 'excuses for Oscar' part of the psychiatrist's testimony under direct. They're such a joke on this story.

ABC front page!

An Oscar Pistorius defense strategy may have backfired as a psychiatrist’s testimony had prosecutors suggesting they might push for Pistorius to get admitted to a psychiatric hospital for mental observation.

Defense Advocate Barry Roux called psychiatrist Dr. Merryl Vorster to explain Pistorius’ fear of crime, a fear that the defense tried to tie to the Valentine’s Day 2013 shooting death of Pistorius' girlfriend, Reeva Steenkamp. Pistorius has argued that the shooting was accidental, that he mistook his girlfriend for an intruder.

Pistorius suffers from generalized anxiety disorder, brought on by his mother’s death, difficulties handling the amputation of his lower legs and his growing fame, Vorster testified in court today.

http://abcnews.go.com/International...bservation-anxiety-disorder/story?id=23677670

 

[Viper]

Hi Viper - I think you're misreading this one but you're sure proving you're not Barnacle :smile:. The shrink has not been dismissed yet. Of course she won't change her testimony, but you may find that she explains it in such a way that there is very little left.

Don't forget that OP would hate like hell to have any doubts cast on his sanity and he is paying the piper.

Sorry, I am using my mobile phone so I try to keep my posts relatively short. I should have been more clear. Mr. Nel told Judge Masipa that he had no further questions for the doctor, by doing that Nel was releasing the doctor over to Roux, throwing away his opportunity to elicit further evidence from her and throwing down the gauntlet to the Court that he wanted his application submitted today. Open this link and go all the way to the end, 4:49.39:

http://new.livestream.com/wildabouttrial/events/2811169/videos/50314377

Judge Masipa asked Nel to reconsider, which he did. But Nel is deadly serious about having OP placed under psychiatric observation.

BTW, this was the most exciting day of the trial for me! Loved it!!!

 

[sleuth-d-]

The defence obviously thought this wasn't the case.

ty.
if that is correct, then today's witness is only assessing a state of mind which has become evident in the last 2 months.

or, she is at odds with the initial defence.

either way it looks shabby. imo

 

[jay-jay]

I read it as presenting the defence with a binary choice: either

1. OP is fully responsible for his actions, or
2. OP has a psychiatric condition that makes him not fully responsible for his actions.

From there, if the Defence choose 1., Vorster's report is totally irrelevant, and if they choose 2., his bail is cancelled and off he goes for assessment.

I don't think Nel is determined to get Choice 2 through. On the contrary, I think he would prefer them to avoid Choice 2 by getting Vorster to backtrack and admit that he has no diminished responsibility.

The crucial point is that you can't have your cake and eat it. You can't be a poor plaything of circumstances when you're killing people but a suitable person to be at large and to own firearms the rest of the time.

BBM That's exactly how I've interpreted it, too.

 

[zwiebel]

BBC's Andrew Harding says from what he has heard it court, he thinks it's unlikely Judge will grant Nel's application.

Adds he thinks she will decide the matter tomorrow.

And that if granted, it can mean up to 30 days committal.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-27371430

 

[jay-jay]

And I have just listened to Prof of Psych say exactly the opposite. That Anxiety can be a driver to success. The fear of failure pushes him further on the track.

Just shows you what a guess so much of this all is.

Reeva remains dead behind the locked door...

Fear of failure is not the same thing as anxiety though ..

.. agree with the rest of what you've said, none of it is definitive/provable.

 

[MissJ]

In the USA, the 30 day eval is for a NGRI defense and every defense attorney and defendant is A-okay with doing it..because if they get the psychiatrist to say the person is legally insane it is a pretty good possibility they will spend some time in psych but not go to jail. Of course the patient/defendant can go back to the jail that he came from if he chooses. Never seen one who wanted to do that. Our hospital was pretty swanky compared to the jail. Again, the people ordered for 30 day eval were so ordered by a judge to the benefit of the person accused of serious crime (usually murder); they didn't snatch people off the streets and do a 30 day eval so the "holding someone against their will" issue does not apply. They are free to go back to jail and accept the consequences anytime.

 

[G.bng]

I heard 3 days

With Dewani it was a month, or maybe 3 weeks, but 3 days sounds too little.

 

[sleuth-d-]

I read it as presenting the defence with a binary choice: either

1. OP is fully responsible for his actions, or
2. OP has a psychiatric condition that makes him not fully responsible for his actions.

From there, if the Defence choose 1., Vorster's report is totally irrelevant, and if they choose 2., his bail is cancelled and off he goes for assessment.

I don't think Nel is determined to get Choice 2 through. On the contrary, I think he would prefer them to avoid Choice 2 by getting Vorster to backtrack and admit that he has no diminished responsibility.

The crucial point is that you can't have your cake and eat it. You can't be a poor plaything of circumstances when you're killing people but a suitable person to be at large and to own firearms the rest of the time.

bbm. like i said, nel has the defence between a rock and a hard place again. although even with the report torn up, you would think he would like to keep some of the comments that he drew out of this witness today... not so?

 

[Gryffindor]

With Dewani it was a month, or maybe 3 weeks, but 3 days sounds too little.

I have no idea how it works :-\