Trial Discussion Thread #37 - 14.05.12 Day 30

[wb180]

Seriously the whole DT case is BS. I can't believe there is so much BS in this trial from OP side of things.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

She also said OP was hyper vigilant about security. I take that to mean he had a constant awareness of anything that might cause him harm? Intruders, etc? If that's so, how does that remotely fit in with him being relaxed enough to sleep with his balcony doors open? You're at your most vulnerable when you're asleep, so the fact he was able to snooze without worrying about anyone entering through those doors directly contradicts his alleged paranoia and fear. And he could have regularly slept with them open. Other residents had their doors and windows open that night, so it looks as if OP had the same 'fears' as anyone else on the estate, ie, none.

You would have to think he was even more relaxed because didn't he testify that he knew the ladders were outside but hadn't moved them to the garage ?

 

[JudgeJudi]

Can't really believe DT didn't see this one coming. They want to claim diminished responsibility? Then he shouldn't be walking the streets if his condition means he may become "hypervigilant" again and shoot someone else! Good lord.

This explains diminished responsibility.

http://alevellaw.doomby.com/pages/voluntary-manslaughter/

 

[Interested Bystander]

BIB. You're wrong. :smile:

OP has "a snowball's chance in h*ll" of walking away from this. Don't worry.

Thank you. It worried me that when Nel clearly said that he could not be charged if mental illness was apparent and that is why he wanted him assessed. If that truly is the case what is there to stop him behaving as mentally sick when he is under assessment, if it gets that far, BUT not so mentally ill that he has to be institutionalised?

 

[wb180]

Thank you. It worried me that when Nel clearly said that he could not be charged if mental illness was apparent and that is why he wanted him assessed. If that truly is the case what is there to stop him behaving as mentally sick when he is under assessment, if it gets that far, BUT not so mentally ill that he has to be institutionalised?

There better be no gap because if he acts like he has mental illness, he is a danger to the public and should spend the rest of his life in the ward.

 

[Really?]

arty:

If you are only reading this thread, and not actually watching todays of testimony, you absolutely must find a video link later today and watch this! It's been absolutely amazing!!!

OP is going to be carted off to a psychiatric ward for three (3) days of observation. Roux really messed up big-time by bringing this psychiatrist.

Also, Nel almost laughed out loud and called this OP's "Third Defense!"

Thank you Viper. I didn't get to watch but a few minutes today.....I def will watch it sometime today.....

 

[G.bng]

My version...
An industrial psychologist is basically a psychologist used in the corporate environment to assess and in some cases be involved with the therapy of employees. They can also assess general working conditions of employees and may make recommendations to improve working conditions, the motivation of emplyees and any other factors that may influence productivity.

They are also used assess prospective employees to determine suitability for placement and whether they might or might not fit into the specific corporate environment.

And the loooooooong version:
Industrial and organizational psychology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Corporate environment, working conditions... how does that fit here with OP ? Could it possibly be this one is an industrial psychologist turned sports psychologist like those used in the sports industry to motivate and pump up a sport's person's moral so as to focus them and enhance their competitive traits and spirit, i.e. Andy Murray who kept losing, or one that helps the sport's person deal with the stress of competing in a highly competitive way to ground them when they go on a self destruct course, i.e. Wayne Roony. Just pondering.

 

[Hatfield]

Thank you. It worried me that when Nel clearly said that he could not be charged if mental illness was apparent and that is why he wanted him assessed. If that truly is the case what is there to stop him behaving as mentally sick when he is under assessment, if it gets that far, BUT not so mentally ill that he has to be institutionalised?

I share your concerns. I dont blame Nel for this at all since he was obligated to some extent to try to get to the bottom of what the witness was really trying to claim. I blame the defense for bringing this witness in.

But now that we are heading for a sidetrack, I do worry about the outcome of the possibles that could happen from this.

Here in the US, there are examples of "sick minded" people that are now walking the streets after shooting someone.

I believe the shooter of Ronald Regan is out now....John Hinkley Junior.

And for those that dont get out they are in a perpetuated state of being in treatment like Chapman that shot John Lennon. Its probably a much better life for them to be in treatment and declared "mentally ill" than to be in general population with no such result.

With OP, I am afraid the defense will try to use this to their advantage now that they may see this as a "way out" somehow.

 

[BritsKate]

Thank you. It worried me that when Nel clearly said that he could not be charged if mental illness was apparent and that is why he wanted him assessed. If that truly is the case what is there to stop him behaving as mentally sick when he is under assessment, if it gets that far, BUT not so mentally ill that he has to be institutionalised?

Just to clarify - someone who is mentally ill can certainly still stand trial. One has to be deemed to be incompetent to stand trial in order to avoid it - it's only a temporary measure that actually forces treatment on the defendant so they can become competent - and it's a much higher burden to prove than one psych simply stating he has x, y, z. Hence, the reason for the up to 30 days. Being incompetent means they are so mentally unwell that they can't understand the charges against them or participate in their own defence.

 

[Viper]

Thank you. It worried me that when Nel clearly said that he could not be charged if mental illness was apparent and that is why he wanted him assessed. If that truly is the case what is there to stop him behaving as mentally sick when he is under assessment, if it gets that far, BUT not so mentally ill that he has to be institutionalised?

I would say emphatically that OP would not to that, but with his defense going as poorly as it is, who knows? But I do believe that it is highly unlikely.

Nel is following the law on this, it just so happens that it also benefits the prosecution. So you could say also that Nel is using the law to the State's advantage. :smile:

OP will spend a few days with some kind and caring doctors and nurses, it will not be harsh by any means. When his observation is completed those healthcare professionals will come to the Court and testify. This is a huge win for the State, IMO, if Masipa orders it. And if Nel's interpretation of the statutes is correct, Judge Masipa will have no choice but to Order it.

 

[katydid23]

A fascinating day today. Not least for the revelation that Merryll Vorster only examined Pistorius earlier this month, after his histrionics on the stand. Given that she also contradicted the Bail Application by stating someone with a disorder that owned a Gun would be a danger to the public, and you can see that Nel is actually using the defence witnesses against Pistorius.

Add that to Wolmarans & Dixon submitting new evidence as fact after the start of the trial and how they managed to contradict each other, it is clear to see what is happening here.

Nel is dismantling the defence piece by piece. He made a great start with Pistorius on the stand, managing to get him to change his defence. Now, he is making the defence team look rather incompetent and disorganised, with their last minute witnesses & attempts to put pressure on the State.

The Psychiatric Assessment is a very clever move by Nel and Roux should have seen it coming. He will obviously object - because he knows full well that OP is likely be cleared as sane, otherwise they would have used this excuse themselves. Nel is removing this as a fall back position for them and it proves he knew what he was doing. What makes this a very cute move, is even if OP is classed as not fit for trial, it will not matter because they State will be able to argue that there is no way of knowing if he was when it started. (i.e. Vorsters assertion that his condition is deteriorating actually being used to back up the claim of the defence team tailoring their responses.)

I actually think he will not go for assessment. Deep down, Roux must appreciate that if he does, they have nowhere left to go and any outcome will reflect badly.

Great post. :welcome: :fireworks:

 

[JudgeJudi]

"andrew harding ‏@BBCAndrewH · 3h

#OscarPistorius told me state's demand to refer him for psychiatric evaluation was "a joke" and that today's evidence went "well" for him."


I'm so happy he feels that way.

 

[Really?]

The fact that Dr V agreed OP is dangerous re the flight/fight issue whilst in possession of a gun, has given the court a real dilemma re bail I would have thought. Especially if uncle Arnold has guns in the house.

In addition the court need to avoid future appeals, so have to take the witness assertions seriously.

Hey! Ho!

ETA: I would expect the bail to be a headache for the court, whether or not they refer for psychiatric assessment as the oppropriately qualified person (witness) has agreed he could be dangerous.

I am sorry I missed today.....I really lol'd at the. Hey! HO!

 

[BritsKate]

Seriously, there's likely a greater chance of me becoming the first yankee Queen than there is Oscar being deemed incompetent or successful at proving an involuntary defense. It just ain't gonna happen.

JMO and FWIW

 

[JudgeJudi]

so presumably it was done for this case too. and there is a report filed, that has been agreed upon before the trial started.

OT, but here's a great link for FAQ re the Dewani case

https://www.facebook.com/notes/anni...asked-questions/875384889143255?stream_ref=10

 

[Hatfield]

I would say emphatically that OP would not to that, but with his defense going as poorly as it is, who knows? But I do believe that it is highly unlikely.

Nel is following the law on this, it just so happens that it also benefits the prosecution. So you could say also that Nel is using the law to the State's advantage. :smile:

OP will spend a few days with some kind and caring doctors and nurses, it will not be harsh by any means. When his observation is completed those healthcare professionals will come to the Court and testify. This is a huge win for the State, IMO, if Masipa orders it. And if Nel's interpretation of the statutes is correct, Judge Masipa will have no choice but to Order it.

If an assessment is ordered I really worry what the results of that assessment will be.

OP has demonstrated in court that he is "unusual" in some ways. Past incidents with him firing guns also are hints that something may be seriously wrong with him.

Could what we are seeing in court and elsewhere be a reflection of something much deeper that nobody expected.

We may all be shocked at the results of the assessment if one is ordered.

 

[Viper]

From the link, quote:

<Snipped> ..."Overall, Mr Pistorius appears to be a mistrustful and guarded person," Vorster said.

<Snipped>

Nel asked her whether someone who was suffering from an anxiety disorder of the kind she had diagnosed in Pistorius, and who had access to guns, would be a danger to society. Vorster said such a person would indeed be a danger.


Wow! OP just might have his bail revoked after his psychiatric evaluation is completed. :what:

The description of OP as "mistrustful" is valid. I wonder how Reeva was able to tolerate him for three months...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/12/oscar-pistorius-psychiatric-observation-prosecutor

 

[JudgeJudi]

:sigh: I think, after following this bloody case, I need to seek out a psychologist myself. This trial has been the craziest I've ever seen.

Exactly. I've never heard of a case like it either. It's like a soap opera come to life. Truth really can be stranger than fiction. I wish OP could be cross-examined again though, really. I still can't believe that really happened.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Goodnight my fellow sleuthers. It's been a great night, an exciting night and now I need to get some shuteye. :seeya:

 

[KarenUK]

Just got home and finished watching todays events. Nel is amazing, if I ever get clobbered over the head by an irrate colleague for over-use of the internet/websleuths on the companys time I'd like Gerrie Nel to be the prosecutor