Trial Discussion Thread #38 - 14.05.13 Day 31

[Giles]

Reminds me of the nursery rhyme

Dr Vorster went to Gloucester
In a shower of rain
She stepped in a puddle
Right up to her middle
And never went there again.

Yes, every time I heard 'Dr Vorster' mentioned I started silently reciting the nursery rhyme to myself.

 

[DebinGA]

He said the next witness is going to testify about another disorder OP has relating to the fight vs flight reaction.

*Re fight v. flight, isn't that what OP has been doing since high school every time he races? Hasn't he trained for years to effectively quell his anxiety as he waits for the pistol sound and immediately explodes out of the blocks? His coping techniques must work splendidly given his Olympian status.
*Then there's his excellent proficiency with the gun he used to kill Reeva. The sound of the shots, the recoil of the gun firing, etc. were entirely known and much less anxiety producing than for most gun owners in a similar situation imo.
*I doubt he was on his stumps when he fired because of the bedroom pics showing his post-murder run arounds two times must have been a lie, but even if OP was on his stumps and approached Mr. Intruder as he claims, he should have been less, not more anxious than the average guy with legs would have been.

 

[patCee]

And yet another reason to have him referred to an unbiased assessor if the DT is introducing another psychiatric factor for consideration.

Nel put forth a very strong scholarly legal argument, the expert (MV) agreed that a second opinion would be beneficial, the expert opined that a person with GAD in possession of a gun would be dangerous....

IMO, granting the request has only an upside for all parties involved. It would be an error of law to deny the prosecution's application for a thorough independent assessment, not to mention it would be unfair to the accused.

BBM
Good points there, I missed the witness' point about a 2nd opinion being beneficial, (or forgotten). Again doesn't seem M'lady has much choice then.

 

[DILLIGAF]

Nel has boxed Roux into a corner - hence the emotional aspect to his objection. I think he was further irritated when Nel responded by saying the reason why he knew so much about the case he was referring to, is that because he was the Counsel involved and was arguing against the motion.

I believe that it matters not whether Judge Masipa grants the referral. Either way, the Defence is severely compromised as by stating that they would be bringing yet another Witness, they are saying that due process should not be followed.

Essentially, Vorster's testimony has created the requirement for Nel to ask for a referral. Arguing against the referral by saying 'Oh, well we are bringing someone else to court and we might have to have another referral if different aspects are highlighted,' shows a lack of preparation for this situation, which I find staggering.

In my personal opinion, Masipa will say no, but will declare that the defence cannot rely on Vorsters testimony.

Nel hasn't just boxed Roux into a corner, he's put him on the canvas and now Roux is staggering around the ring praying for the bell.

This is a win/win for the PT regardless of the Judge's ruling imho.

 

[whiterum]

too funny...strange smell in courtroom...could it be the garbage that is being put forth by this witness?

That was funny Nel asking the witness 'do you smell something' then looking behind him at the guys sitting there , haha !

 

[james83]

They have tried to slip this in the backdoor in readiness for an appeal and Nel isn't having any of it.

 

[Viper]

*Re fight v. flight, isn't that what OP has been doing since high school every time he races? Hasn't he trained for years to effectively quell his anxiety as he waits for the pistol sound and immediately explodes out of the blocks? His coping techniques must work splendidly given his Olympian status.
*Then there's his excellent proficiency with the gun he used to kill Reeva. The sound of the shots, the recoil of the gun firing, etc. were entirely known and much less anxiety producing than for most gun owners in a similar situation imo.
*I doubt he was on his stumps when he fired because of the bedroom pics showing his post-murder run arounds two times must have been a lie, but even if OP was on his stumps and approached Mr. Intruder as he claims, he should have been less, not more anxious than the average guy with legs would have been.

Deb I'm not trying to open a can of worms with this post. :worms:

But I have been thinking lately about the legs on legs off thing, and two things support legs off:

1). Batman's investigation results regarding the placement of the two bat strike marks.

2). The fact that OP was moving left to right as he fired each of the four bullets. That in itself shows him moving to get a better aim at his target, Reeva. But it could also indicate that he was wobbling to his right as he was taking aim and shooting each shot.

I don't know. It is just something that crossed my mind.

 

[patCee]

They have tried to slip this in the backdoor in readiness for an appeal and Nel isn't having any of it.

I haven't really got into the issue of it all being a ruse, (although the legalese is) but this one I could go with as a way of Roux hedging his bets, for OP.

 

[james83]

Funny that he's so anxious yet willing to drive at ridiculous speeds in his car without a care.

 

[jay-jay]

What does everyone think the Judge will say?

I vote no. But Nel has made very sure that the mental illness/disorder won't be part of the defence's case, IMO. My main reservation is around the appeal process but it would be a brave lawyer who'd reintroduce psychiatric issues after this palaver. All IMO and I have no strong opinions either way.

^^ I agree with this ^^

 

[BritsKate]

Nel has boxed Roux into a corner - hence the emotional aspect to his objection. I think he was further irritated when Nel responded by saying the reason why he knew so much about the case he was referring to, is that because he was the Counsel involved and was arguing against the motion.

I believe that it matters not whether Judge Masipa grants the referral. Either way, the Defence is severely compromised as by stating that they would be bringing yet another Witness, they are saying that due process should not be followed.

Essentially, Vorster's testimony has created the requirement for Nel to ask for a referral. Arguing against the referral by saying 'Oh, well we are bringing someone else to court and we might have to have another referral if different aspects are highlighted,' shows a lack of preparation for this situation, which I find staggering.

In my personal opinion, Masipa will say no, but will declare that the defence cannot rely on Vorsters testimony.

RBBM

Just on this point, I really don't think anyone saw this coming. This is something that never occurs midtrial and is down to Nel knowing the CPA as well as he does. As soon as the psych defence opened the door, Nel was on it. In hindsight, I think if Roux knew where this would lead he would have changed tactics - cautioning the witness before she ever testified or not calling her at all.

That he did call her leads me to believe he didn't even consider it a possibility.

JMO

 

[Cherwell]

I've just started to read the piece in the Telegraph and this caught my eye

"If Pistorius is sent to an institution it would disrupt the proceedings considerably.

The trial will be halted until the observation period is over and results are presented to the court. The stay itself would only be 30 days, but there is a six month wait for most state hospitals.

Pistorius would probably be taken into custody pending his hospital stay; a shock for him after being allowed relatively lenient bail conditions."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...759350/Oscar-Pistorius-murder-trial-live.html

:jail:

 

[DarKHawK]

I think, that the request at the end of the day will be up to the Judge and Section 78 decision is probably the correct decision but I think it will be more about time.
The Judge gives me the impression she wants this over with.

 

[DebinGA]

But I have been thinking lately about the legs on legs off thing, and two things support legs off:
1). Batman's investigation results regarding the placement of the two bat strike marks.

2). The fact that OP was moving left to right as he fired each of the four bullets. That in itself shows him moving to get a better aim at his target, Reeva. But it could also indicate that he was wobbling to his right as he was taking aim and shooting each shot.

I don't know. It is just something that crossed my mind.

~rsbm to save space~

Good points, Viper. I just can't reconcile OP on stumps walking back and forth twice through the floor area pictured below, in pitch darkness, feeling the curtains with one hand and holding the cocked gun with the other:

http://cdn.all4women.co.za/var/all4...n/1797099-1-eng-GB/bedroom-and-fan_web250.jpg

And I can't imagine OP the narcissist having a prolonged argument with Reeva on his stumps.

 

[rachael123]

For my own purely selfish reasons, I hope he reopens regardless. I want to know if my armchair dx is accurate.

What does that mean."reopens"

 

[DebinGA]

http://www.health24.com/columnists/oscar-trial-the-shrink-has-shrunk-20140513

Re Dr. Vorster: "The Shrink Has Shrunk"

Professor MA Simpson is Health24's CyberShrink. A South African psychiatrist, he qualified in medicine and in psychiatry in Britain. He has been a senior academic, researcher, and Professor in several countrie

 

[patCee]

I think, that the request at the end of the day will be up to the Judge and Section 78 decision is probably the correct decision but I think it will be more about time.
The Judge gives me the impression she wants this over with.

:welcome5:

 

[Magdalyn]

"You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear"

That's the most common expression in southeast U.S. Other regional equivalents?

Lipstick on a pig! Don't know that that's necessarily Southern though, my Northern mama has been saying it since I was a little girl.

Hello fellow Southerner! (Georgian?) :seeya:

 

[lithgow1]

What does that mean."reopens"

Someone can probably explain it better but my understanding is that now the defence has opened the door on a possible psych disorder that could be used as a factor in the court's decision on degree of guilt and as mitigation during sentencing Nel can argue to be allowed to put his own psych expert on the stand. One of the police's psych experts was in court during all of OP's testiminy and cross-examination and I guess it would be him.

A couple of lawyers on here predicted weeks ago that this could happen (the re-open if defence brought in psych factors) and it would basically be a given that this would be approved. Hope this is still the case - in fact you would think it more likely if the defence have introduced this element. Personally I'd prefer that as I'd love to hear what the state's guy has to say about Mr P. And now, after all that, someone has probably answered your question in one sentence!

 

[thewagesofsin]

That was funny Nel asking the witness 'do you smell something' then looking behind him at the guys sitting there , haha !

I was expecting one of them to stand up and confess, "um, that was me." This being court and all...


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