Trial Discussion Thread #40

[Karmady]

Poor reporting? On redirect OP says "I saw that her cell phone was in the toilet" so unless it was during direct, which I am not going to listen to again(well not today... ), I suppose you could take it either way.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-19--cross-examination-gets-combative-153124242.html


Start at 3:10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vbz64-Ie0BM

Thanks Val. I'm gonna go with poor reporting...good grief lol

 

[jilly]

The first thing that would happen in that event is Roux would retire from the case as his attorney. Roux has already agreed to this procedure , on behalf of Oscar , so Roux would be Oscars first casualty. The next , would be Oscar's bail. That would be instantly revoked and he would become the accused at large, being sought for non compliance.


I don't put it past Oscar to try it on, though.

Do you think this Judge would allow that, at this stage?

If Oscar doesn't show up, he'd be in contempt of a Court Order and a warrant would be issued, wouldn't it?

 

[Trooper]

No you have misstated what I posted, I said for a mental health professional to treat Oscar as Nel treated Oscar would go against their ethical code.

Since Oscar would be presenting himself to mental health professionals on an entirely different basis ( that is, as a court orderderd patient mandatorily sent by the court, and not a private patient concerned about his own mental health , and paying the required bill for services rendered) ...

and his presentation to Nel as the accused person , being prosecuted for the crime of deliberate murder, and Nel required by the RSA Jurisprudence to prosecute Oscar on this basis, I fail to comprehend how your comparison has logic. Or even relevance.

 

[Carmelita]

His own witness ,Prof Vorster has already stated that the disorder she believes he has is treatable and should have been diagnosed and treated for a very very long time. That is not the issue.

It is not the responsibility OR the task of the panel to treat, or manage whatever disorder they may find. Or not. . he would be referred onwards. The panel itself is not formed to the view to treat Oscar's disorder, should he have one. This is the mistake that is being made. Their job is an impartial evaluation. And evaluation ONLY. nothing more. They have no mandate to treat Oscar.. has Oscar expressed a wish to you that he wants to be treated?? Absolutely not. Their impartiality would be compromised should they suddenly become his counsellors. This irrational thinking is probably due to a misreading of the statute, or the concept of court appointed evaluation. Keep in mind, this is not at the request of Oscar. far from.

I think you are misreading my posts.


I believe it is not in keeping with the MHCA for a person under evaluation who is found to have a mental health issue and would benefit from medication to be denied that medication or the knowledge of the health benefit that they may receive from a medication.

I have not said those charged with the evaluation should become Oscar's counselors.

It is not sound medicine.

 

[Val1]

I'll admit to not having gone through that phase properly so i would have to watch again , as i only realized late that he was not going to be televised.

Lately i have been busy between real life and following the developments so could not play catch-up as i wished.

What i can say , quite strongly , is that he must be on some sort of muscle-relaxant medications . There's so often little involvement in his facial expressions that not even the best coaching can do. Thing is with micro-expressions... they act from a sub-concious level , they are very hard to control/conceal/feign. It can be done but a huge amount of training and understanding of emotions must be involved.
From what i have seen so far , he face has been like stone even in difficult moments...moments one would expect to see something.

I have no expertise to judge his breakdowns but i will agree that to that extent they are hard to fake.

I shall use this break from the trial , like i intended , to catch-up on the earlier phases and go through the moments you suggested with a more clinical eye

While you're at it, you may want to compare OP to his siblings... his brother has the same type of stony expression whereas the sister is broken.

 

[Magdalyn]

No you have misstated what I posted, I said for a mental health professional to treat Oscar as Nel treated Oscar would go against their ethical code.

Uh huh.....looks like we'll have to agree to disagree on that point! eace:

 

[Carmelita]

Since Oscar would be presenting himself to mental health professionals on an entirely different basis ( that is, as a court orderderd patient mandatorily sent by the court, and not a private patient concerned about his own mental health , and paying the required bill for services rendered) ...

and his presentation to Nel as the accused person , being prosecuted for the crime of deliberate murder, and Nel required by the RSA Jurisprudence to prosecute Oscar on this basis, I fail to comprehend how your comparison has logic. Or even relevance.

Please, you'll have to restate your question as it makes no sense to me, as you have posted it, thanks

 

[Trooper]

Do you think this Judge would allow that, at this stage?

If Oscar doesn't show up, he'd be in contempt of a Court Order and a warrant would be issued, wouldn't it?

he would instantly be in violation of a court decision. Contempt, revocation of bail and a very small chance of being given the opportunity to show cause from a position of relative freedom he enjoys now.

 

[Carmelita]

Uh huh.....looks like we'll have to agree to disagree on that point! eace:

Ok by me

 

[TorisMom003]

Do you think this Judge would allow that, at this stage?

If Oscar doesn't show up, he'd be in contempt of a Court Order and a warrant would be issued, wouldn't it?

Since OP has more than one lawyer, I don't see why Roux couldn't quit if his client refuses to listen to his advice. Especially when OP has tried to throw Roux under the bus at least twice while on the stand to the point that Nel himself had to defend Roux.

One would think that a warrent would be issued if OP failed to show up for his court appointed assessment. But I'm not sure of the laws in SA for this type of thing.

MOO

 

[Trooper]

Please, you'll have to restate your question as it makes no sense to me, as you have posted it, thanks

I wasn't asking a question. I made a statement. I require no answer at all.

 

[Val1]

Comparing how Nel treats the defendant with how an independent mental health professional treats the defendant is a non-starter, imo. If a doctor did what Nel does, he would, imo, be violating his ethics and potentially causing harm. The doctors roles and ethical responsibilities are completely different than Nel's. jmo

One wonders if shock therapy is sanctioned if the accused claims memory loss during this court ordered procedure?

 

[jilly]

This is really going to turn into a mess if he pulls a Martin MacNeil and refuses to meet with the mental health experts and just doesn't show up. Then what are they going to do?

I think he'll show up. He's so arrogant and has had his way all his life, that he'll think he can manipulate the psychiatrists.

 

[Viper]

Comparing how Nel treats the defendant with how an independent mental health professional treats the defendant is a non-starter, imo. If a doctor did what Nel does, he would, imo, be violating his ethics and potentially causing harm. The doctors roles and ethical responsibilities are completely different than Nel's. jmo

This is a criminal psychiatric evaluation that is to take place in an environment dedicated to such. It is remotely similar to OPs two visits with Dr. V, but these mental health professionals have a different mandate than the soft conversations that occurred in Dr. V's office. She refused to even look at the court transcript that Roux gave her. Geez!

I did not realize that some folks saw Mr. Nel's questions as being so harmful to OPs psyche, I really didn't. But what it boils down to is other people, mental health professionals, most of them having full time careers assessing criminals, are going to politely ask OP some questions. Lots and lots of questions, all related to OP and the fact that he killed. And they will do this for 30 days from 5:00AM-9:00PM everyday. There will be lots of forms and standard tests for him to complete, but most of his time will be spent interacting with these folks. But on the bright side, maybe he will charm them in to feeling sorry for him and they won't ask him any hard probing questions, and certainly not any follow up questions.

 

[Trooper]

I think you are misreading my posts.


I believe it is not in keeping with the MHCA for a person under evaluation who is found to have a mental health issue and would benefit from medication to be denied that medication or the knowledge of the health benefit that they may receive from a medication.

I have not said those charged with the evaluation should become Oscar's counselors.

It is not sound medicine.

I am not misreading your posts.. you are misapprehending my responses, every time, and it seems to be a pattern.. However, it doesn't change the fact that Oscar has not sought treatment for any disorder, none at all . Who is denying him treatment or medicine? No one. Nor has that claim been made by Oscar, or anyone else. One cant have pharmaceutical treatment forced upon one. Unless you are aware of Oscar being denied treatment at any stage ,. the theory is meaningless.

 

[TorisMom003]

I think he'll show up. He's so arrogant and has had his way all his life, that he'll think he can manipulate the psychiatrists.

Exactly. Just like why he didn't skip the country as soon as his bail conditions were relaxed, he thought he could talk his way out of a guilty verdict. After all, his brother was able to get away with killing someone, why not OP as well?!?

MOO

 

[Val1]

His own witness ,Prof Vorster has already stated that the disorder she believes he has is treatable and should have been diagnosed and treated for a very very long time. That is not the issue.

It is not the responsibility OR the task of the panel to treat, or manage whatever disorder they may find. Or not. . he would be referred onwards. The panel itself is not formed to the view to treat Oscar's disorder, should he have one. This is the mistake that is being made. Their job is an impartial evaluation. And evaluation ONLY. nothing more. They have no mandate to treat Oscar.. has Oscar expressed a wish to you that he wants to be treated?? Absolutely not. Their impartiality would be compromised should they suddenly become his counsellors. This irrational thinking is probably due to a misreading of the statute, or the concept of court appointed evaluation. Keep in mind, this is not at the request of Oscar. far from.

Also, any forthcoming treatment options will only work if the accused is not in denial and willing to take it seriously(no OP, it's no joke). Until OP accepts that he's royally screwed himself as far as having a profitable brand to protect I doubt he will accept it, I don't mean saying "oh yea that's what I have" in order to avoid prison, but really accept it, any treatment given will be just a waste of time.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

 

[Carmelita]

This is a criminal psychiatric evaluation that is to take place in an environment dedicated to such. It is remotely similar to OPs two visits with Dr. V, but these mental health professionals have a different mandate than the soft conversations that occurred in Dr. V's office. She refused to even look at the court transcript that Roux gave her. Geez!

I did not realize that some folks saw Mr. Nel's questions as being so harmful to OPs psyche, I really didn't. But what it boils down to is other people, mental health professionals, most of them having full time careers assessing criminals, are going to politely ask OP some questions. Lots and lots of questions, all related to OP and the fact that he killed. And they will do this for 30 days from 5:00AM-9:00PM everyday. There will be lots of forms and standard tests for him to complete, but most of his time will be spent interacting with these folks. But on the bright side, maybe he will charm them in to feeling sorry for him and they won't ask him any hard probing questions, and certainly not any follow up questions.

Vorsters role should have been to assess Oscar's mental health and any underlying conditions.

The state mandated Mental Health professional's role is to assess Oscar's mental health and any underlying conditions and the role if any his mental health played in the death of Reeva. It is an evaluation not an inquest.

The terms of Oscar evaluation will not be known until Tuesday.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Hello everyone:greetings: ,
I’ve been lurking for over a month and finally decided to join, I’ve really enjoyed reading all your posts, the different viewpoints and fantastic sleuthing skills. I’ve been following the trial too, and I’m definitely a great admirer of Gerrie Nel, who is certainly doing his utmost to come to the truth and justice for Reeva Steenkamp and her loving family and friends.
I was once a fan of OP, watched several of his races, and applauded his athletic ability, witnessing on the tv screen that strong determination that led him to win his races and become an icon for SA and the disabled. But now…..:sigh:

After watching the trial so far and reading your insightful posts and thinking over OP’s account of what happened, I do not believe his story to be reasonably possibly true.
This latest attempt to explain his bizarre behaviour on that night by being diagnosed with GAD by Dr V certainly is grasping at straws, imo. If OP is so terrified and fearful of intruders and the unknown lurking in every corner, why in his ‘version’ would he rise from his bed without turning on the bedside lamp? IMO, he would do this instinctively, whether Reeva was awake or not (by his second account she was awake), so one point against him on that score.

Having GAD, wouldn't OP feel even more vulnerable hobbling around in the dark, moving fans, shutting balcony door, curtains and plunging his bedroom into pitch black darkness, and if that’s not enough, fumbled around with jeans to cover red light that mysteriously bothered him only on THIS particular night? Wouldn't the red light comfort him, like safety led lights used for kids and adults afraid of the dark? Another point against him in my book, GAD is a constant, it doesn't come and go.

I just can’t believe this whole darkness thing, it just doesn't ring true. Also, if he is constantly thinking about intruders, wouldn't he turn on the lights every opportune moment so passing outsiders or potential intruders are aware that he is home ( I mean, he is supposedly thinking of this threat constantly)? This of course is added to all his other failures to secure his property, like not locking away ladders or his car, not fixing window etc.

From there on in it just gets more unreal. IMO, there most definitely was an argument and OP lost control and Reeva retreated to the toilet cubicle. I don’t believe Reeva would stay completely silent in his supposed scenario either, I think he feared making anymore conversation without slipping up and yet, this made his story even more unlikely.

One more thing, whenever we are in complete darkness, we use our hands to feel our way, OP would have instinctively touched Reeva when he reached for his gun and spoke to her in his low tone, if he did, he would discover she wasn't there. :banghead:

Sorry for babbling especially my very first post :blushing:, just had to get these thoughts all out. I look forward to continue reading your posts and contribute what I can and ask questions, there are just so many questions.

My opinion only. :twocents:


Thank you fellow websleuthers! BTW, love the smilies! :loveyou:

 

[Trooper]

I can only hope that all the panel are men and not women. .. judging by the hysterical testimony of the social worker, who went way beyond and over the top in her grasp of what her role , as she was appointed to , actually was, .. that social worker was, I think actually under the impression that Oscar chose her and turned up to see her on a voluntary basis because she was so .. so.. soooo adoring.. Vorster was a sitting duck for Oscar's sad old story, too..

Some bright poster way back in the thread hoped the panel would all be men also, and added that they hoped every bloke on the panel would look like Oscar's Dad.. a scenario that highly appealed to me. I wish I could find that poster and thank them for it, it has resonated for days.