Trial Discussion Thread #43 - 14.06.30 Day 33

[JudgeJudi]

Roxanne Adams

No, Roxanne Adams is the blonde lawyer who is a member of the defence team.

 

[Viper]

No, you haven't missed anything. At the time of OP's bail application the State put forward that OP was wearing his prostheses. However the police expert who did the scientific analysis on the bathroom door, Lt Colonel Vermeulen, was of the belief that OP was on his stumps. Hence the PT went with that opinion. Capt Mangena testified that his ballistics report was based on the fact that OP said he was on his stumps. However, he qualified this by saying it was possible he was wearing his prostheses.

Be that as it may, neither Vermeulen nor Mangena stated that it was impossible for him to have been wearing his prostheses. Obviously if they made a categorical statement that he was on his stumps that would have been the end of the matter. However my belief is based on the fact it was possible. I guess it boils down to what you personally believe happened that night, taking into account all the known facts, probabilities, lies etc., because no-one will ever really know precisely what happened.

I'm one of the believers that there was an argument that escalated over the course of the evening. OP is a person who displays many narcissistic qualities - is controlling, has a sense of self-importance, believes he is special, has a sense of entitlement, lacks empathy and is arrogant. He also has a very hot temper. Because of this, I can't believe he'd have an argument with Reeva while on his stumps with her towering over him. He'd want to assume a more dominant posture which would necessitate him wearing his legs. I can't for one moment believe that he'd allow himself to literally be talked down to by her.

Secondly, he's stated over and over again how he was terrified after he perceived that an intruder/s may have entered his home, but nevertheless proceeded towards the danger when he had the opportunity to ring the police himself, activate the alarm, unlock the bedroom door and escape, shout out to the person that he was armed or wait in the bedroom with his firearm for the person to appear. After Dr Versfeld's testimony today regarding OP's many problems on his stumps - he finds it's difficult to walk, let alone run, he relies on light to see where his legs are and his balance is worse in the dark, I'm totally convinced that he was not on his stumps that night. JMO

IMO it is most likely that the argument got heated in the bedroom while OP was in the bed or near the bed on his stumps. Reeva fled and OP chased her with the bat, then striking the door 2 times while on his stumps. Minutes or moments later he went back for his prosthetic legs and his gun and then killed Reeva while wearing the prosthetic legs.

 

[liesbeth]

Sorry, you are respectfully incorrect. ➊The "cops" controlled the crime scene therefore were responsible for every item there during that time. ➋The "cops" didn't take the cable into evidence, therefore they are responsible for that too.

And to be fair the "cops" probably didn't need it but much later, without checking they had the cable, Nel decides to use the cable, or a photo of it, to prove a part of the State's case, i.e. that OP's testimony of what happened when he returned to the bedroom couldn't possibly be true.

Now, if I have this correct, for the relative part of the State's evidence to stand in evidence, Nel would have to enter the cable into evidence and file it with the court, along with the measurement of the distance from fan to plug which from a photo of the cable Nel affirmed could not reach where OP said it had been plugged in. otherwise IMO it will have to be struck off the record which is what I believe Roux is going for, not the cable itself which he knows is never gonna appear now.

Could it be Oscar's sister decided to remove it from the scene for safekeeping? As she did with Reeva's handbag?

Or maybe the person who smuggled OP's phone from the crime scene has a cord fetish?

Or maybe the person who packed Oscar's stuff for him chucked it in a box and it's in storage somewhere?

Or maybe a policeman risked his job to steal an extension cord?

Or maybe Oscar's lying because the cord proves Nel's case?

Or maybe...I could go on and on. But I won't. The point is that the disappearance of the cord does not help the state's case. But it could help the defense's case and they have the most to gain from this stunt in my opinion.

Edit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwzV3uB9UrI

At about 54:00 minutes they discuss the cord. As I understand it the issue is the length of the fan's cord and not the extension.

Edit: Uploaded image to imgur. Original image found here:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/oscar-pistorius-trial-pictures-show-3397988

 

[Interested Bystander]

Maybe it isn't just a hullaballoo but a necessary move. IMO it is important since Nel used that cable, or rather a photo of it, as a major piece of evidence to prove OP's story when he returned to the bedroom couldn't possibly be true since according to Nel the cable wasn't long enough to plug into where OP said it had been.

I recall Roux objected to Nel using a photo as "proof" the cable wasn't long enough (quite rightly since it is impossible to judge from a photo) and I believe the Judge sided with Roux but in the end allowed Nel to continue the line of questioning on the basis he would enter the cable and its measurements into evidence, or something like that but IMBW. But if neither cable nor forensic measurements of the cable and the distance from fan to the wall have been entered into evidence then Roux is obliged to get the cable barred so that Nel's argument about the cable not being long enough proving OP's version as false will be struck from the record, i.e. no cable, no measurements = no evidence so Masipa would not be able to consider it a fact. Nel would do exactly the same if the boot were on the other foot.

If anyone recalls the episode of the cable better than I or has a link, please do.

I definitely don't remember that at all but would be interested to read about it if anyone finds it. Whilst I wasn't always able to listen live, I did try to watch the day's court proceedings wherever possible. I do remember Roux getting anxious about the cable. Maybe I missed the request by the judge for submission of evidence.

 

[jay-jay]

Maybe it isn't just a hullaballoo but a necessary move. IMO it is important since Nel used that cable, or rather a photo of it, as a major piece of evidence to prove OP's story when he returned to the bedroom couldn't possibly be true since according to Nel the cable wasn't long enough to plug into where OP said it had been.

I recall Roux objected to Nel using a photo as "proof" the cable wasn't long enough (quite rightly since it is impossible to judge from a photo) and I believe the Judge sided with Roux but in the end allowed Nel to continue the line of questioning on the basis he would enter the cable and its measurements into evidence, or something like that but IMBW. But if neither cable nor forensic measurements of the cable and the distance from fan to the wall have been entered into evidence then Roux is obliged to get the cable barred so that Nel's argument about the cable not being long enough proving OP's version as false will be struck from the record, i.e. no cable, no measurements = no evidence so Masipa would not be able to consider it a fact. Nel would do exactly the same if the boot were on the other foot.

If anyone recalls the episode of the cable better than I or has a link, please do.

Yes, I remember the episode of the cable vividly .. and it's quite clear from the photos of it as to exactly how long it is .. you wouldn't need to be in physical possession of it. In fact, from what I remember, it was actually the length of the cable on the fan itself which was in question, because you couldn't actually see that .. you could see the extension clearly, and you could see it was stretched to it's full limit, but as for the fan, I haven't been able to find a photo that clearly shows the length of the cord which goes from the extension to the fan itself (although some of them do show something which looks as if the fan wouldn't be able to be moved further, due to the length of it's own cable but as far as the extension lead is concerned, I cannot see what all the fuss is about because the photographic evidence of it is so clear (and which is which, I would imagine, not that much care was taken over it to keep it as an exhibit .. I very much doubt it was deemed necessary to keep it, once the photographic evidence of it had been secured .. at the end of the day it was just an ordinary extension lead and they did not need it for DNA/fingerprints etc, so why keep it?).

 

[vansleuths]

Milady has a mobility issue and has to be helped when she walks. I wonder if she would be moved by the testimony of the surgeon who was explaining OP's amputation?

 

[44ALLAN]

Neighbors heard....something. They interpreted what they heard. That's what people do. If you live close enough to neighbors to hear loud something's, as I do, then you most likely have had the experience of hearing a loud something and assuming it was something other than what it was in reality.

Snipped by myself.

We also have probability and improbability.

All 5 neighbors said they heard gunshots/bangs and a woman screaming.
All between 3am and 3.17am on the same day in the same neighborhood all at the same time.
And it just happened to coincide with a woman being shot 4 times and murdered at that very time in that neighborhood !.

Could what they heard be improbable in your opinion ? :facepalm:

 

[Cherry]

David Smith

@SmithInAfrica

Retweeted by

Court usher helps Masipa, unsteady as she walks, down to near the door and #Pistorius.

Why is she unsteady on her feet is she ill or frail? I love M'Lady and hope she isn't taking ill because of the stress of this case.

 

[jay-jay]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwzV3uB9UrI

At about 54:00 minutes they discuss the cord.

As I understand it Nel says that the extension cord's plug could not have moved much further to the right because the clippers was plugged in. Since the plug had to remain in the same place for the clipper, the length of the cord in question is not the length of the extension cord, but the length of the cord of the fan (from the plug to the area where OP said he placed the fan.)

Correct, and if anything, it should be the fan (and fan cord) that Masipa is asking to see as evidence, not the extension cord <<-- there is perfectly good photographic evidence of that.

 

[jay-jay]

Milady has a mobility issue and has to be helped when she walks. I wonder if she would be moved by the testimony of the surgeon who was explaining OP's amputation?

She shouldn't be presiding over the case if she is.

 

[Cherry]

She shouldn't be presiding over the case if she is.

I actually see that as a conflict of interest! Why wasn't that addressed before this case started? :banghead:

 

[jay-jay]

Now, if I have this correct, for the relative part of the State's evidence to stand in evidence, Nel would have to enter the cable into evidence and file it with the court, along with the measurement of the distance from fan to plug which from a photo of the cable Nel affirmed could not reach where OP said it had been plugged in. otherwise IMO it will have to be struck off the record which is what I believe Roux is going for, not the cable itself which he knows is never gonna appear now.

~rsbm~

There is perfectly good and adequate photographic evidence of the extension cable, as posted recently in this thread (a few posts back).

You seem very keen for that whole part of the prosecution's case to be struck from the record, why is that?

 

[JudgeJudi]

Mauling? Respectful disagreement is not a mauling and I for one give no great weight to a lawyer based in the US commenting on a trial in South Africa when we have had South African lawyers here - at least we did until they were 'mauled' about their identity.

You're so right. I really miss all the opinions, explanations, reasoning and local knowledge of SA law. What a shame.

 

[Marfa Lights]

And this is what he stated in his sworn affidavit.

:
I rushed back into the bedroom and opened the sliding door exiting onto the balcony and screamed for help. I put on my prosthetic legs, ran back to the bathroom and tried to kick the toilet door open. I think I must then have turned on the lights.

For the life of me I can't figure out why OP is crying out to the night for help when his longtime domestic helper, Frank, is asleep downstairs in a room said to be right off the kitchen. Why has Nel never asked OP, "Why did you not call out to Frank or ask him to help you move Reeva downstairs instead of calling the Standers?"

 

[Emz73]

It is not unusual that a lawyer would not understand the difference between "intent" and an automatic and unconscious compensatory act unless expert in disability issues so perhaps your lawyer has not worked closely with people with disabilities and their issues as I nor has persons in their family with severe disabilities as I do.

Masipa suffers from disability and mobility issues herself so will understand how the body and mind compensate for activities it cannot do normally and how supports and tricks to do something can become second nature to the extent the person doesn't even realise they do it. Possibly why today some here appear to be losing trust in her since she has appeared to understand better than others.

And yes I am an "expert" in disability issues having for now over 12 years worked as a voluntary advocate for adults and families with disabilities and also an activist for equal rights and non discrimination in that respect. Any problem?

His disability isn't going to be used as a factor in this. SA law is different I'm afraid. Its not my lawyer, it's a SA lawyer covering the case for the media.


"our courts have refused to take account of disability of any kind in constructing the reasonable person against whom to compare the accused for the purposes of a negligence enquiry. Instead, if you do something that requires special skill and knowledge (for example, surgery and presumably owning a gun), you will be judged by the standard of the reasonable person who possesses the required skill and knowledge. I expect that our courts will compare Pistorius’s conduct with that of a reasonable gun owner.
Thus, if Pistorius’s defence is that he was mistaken in acting in self/private defence (that is, putative self/private defence), he must be acquitted on the murder charge if the court accepts that this is reasonably possibly true. But the court will then consider whether this mistake was one that a reasonable gun owner may make".
Professor James Grant PHD

 

[liesbeth]

Yes, I remember the episode of the cable vividly .. and it's quite clear from the photos of it as to exactly how long it is .. you wouldn't need to be in physical possession of it. In fact, from what I remember, it was actually the length of the cable on the fan itself which was in question, because you couldn't actually see that .. you could see the extension clearly, and you could see it was stretched to it's full limit, but as for the fan, I haven't been able to find a photo that clearly shows the length of the cord which goes from the extension to the fan itself (although some of them do show something which looks as if the fan wouldn't be able to be moved further, due to the length of it's own cable but as far as the extension lead is concerned, I cannot see what all the fuss is about because the photographic evidence of it is so clear (and which is which, I would imagine, not that much care was taken over it to keep it as an exhibit .. I very much doubt it was deemed necessary to keep it, once the photographic evidence of it had been secured .. at the end of the day it was just an ordinary extension lead and they did not need it for DNA/fingerprints etc, so why keep it?).

This is as close as I could find.

Edit: ...and this.

Edit: Source: Uploaded these particular copies on imgur myself.

Similar images can be found online at:
http://www.mirror.co.uk/incoming/oscar-pistorius-trial-live-updates-3412113
and
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/oscar-pistorius-trial-pictures-show-3397988

 

[JudgeJudi]

Yes, I remember the episode of the cable vividly .. and it's quite clear from the photos of it as to exactly how long it is .. you wouldn't need to be in physical possession of it. In fact, from what I remember, it was actually the length of the cable on the fan itself which was in question, because you couldn't actually see that .. you could see the extension clearly, and you could see it was stretched to it's full limit, but as for the fan, I haven't been able to find a photo that clearly shows the length of the cord which goes from the extension to the fan itself (although some of them do show something which looks as if the fan wouldn't be able to be moved further, due to the length of it's own cable but as far as the extension lead is concerned, I cannot see what all the fuss is about because the photographic evidence of it is so clear (and which is which, I would imagine, not that much care was taken over it to keep it as an exhibit .. I very much doubt it was deemed necessary to keep it, once the photographic evidence of it had been secured .. at the end of the day it was just an ordinary extension lead and they did not need it for DNA/fingerprints etc, so why keep it?).

I'm only going from memory, and it's too late to look for it, but I thought the fan cable went behind a speaker on the left-hand side of the DVD player and the photo showing this didn't reveal how long the cord was. I thought Nel implied it was too short to reach the extension cord AND in any event it couldn't have been plugged in because the big fan and hair clippers were plugged in and there wasn't a spare socket for the small fan to be plugged in.

 

[bessie]

We need links for the images, please.

:tyou:

 

[Marfa Lights]

But didn't Mangena's report determine OP fired without his prosthetics on which is the State's case?

No, he only described it as the most probably of three scenarios. Please review his testimony from Day 13 (or check out this video clip at around 2:50):

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-26642723

Mangena offered these 3 different scenarios:
He said that if OP fired while on his stumps the trajectory would line up around 123 cm-- a difference of 7 cm from OP's shoulder height. Mangena then demonstrated and further explained that this could be attributable to the difference between the hand position and the height of the gun's barrel and also if OP were holding the weapon out in front of him with both hands raised at eye level, that would easily account for the 7 cm difference in where the laser position indicated the trajectory began.

However, another possible scenario he described had Oscar wearing his prostheses but holding the gun with his elbow bent (as, Oscar has himself indicated he approached the bathroom). This placed the firing line at 126 cm-- a 4 cm difference, which he said was easily explained by varying elevations at which OP might have held the gun. Mangena felt this was somewhat awkward firing position, but was still a possible scenario.

The third position he ruled out as impossible, and I believe that was if OP were firing from a position seated on the bathroom floor.

Anyway, to the best of my knowledge, he did not make an affirmative declaration that OP fired from his stumps, only that it was a probability along with the possibility that he could have fired with his gun at his side, elbow bent.

I need to go back and review OP's testimony about how he fired his gun, but IIRC he acknowledged approaching the bathroom with his elbow bent, gun at his side.

Worth another look, no?

 

[Hoosen_Fenger]

This is as close as I could find.

<modsnip>

Edit: ...and this.

<modsnip>

Versfeld saying OP is unstable on his stumps is one thing, but OP himself says that he walked that entire area in the top photo and did not trip over anything. Add these testimonies together and you have clear proof that OP cannot under any stretch of the imagination, be telling the truth.

Nel V Lin is going to be excellent tomorrow. Noise tests have been carried out but the acoustics will be different as there has been further buildings erected in the area which will affect how sounds travel. Another example of the DT scrambling around too late in the day.