Trial Discussion Thread #47 - 14.07.8, Day 38

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Val1 said:
All I had grabbed from the video before it went awol again was this image of the fans.. they look the same to me as the ones lisasalinger has in her blog from the evidence pics.

View attachment 54476

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/
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He must be awfully dexterous to get his hand under the head of the fan and onto the small section of pole to move it from the front, in the pitch dark, on his stumps, and also not have it topple onto him from being top-heavy weighted towards the front (which is why two of the tripod legs are foreward and not aft). I have a pedestal fan and can't move it from the front, it wants to fall forward when lifted off the ground.

In this interim we have I'm watching the trial from the beginning to catch everything I missed and be fully up to speed by the time Nel delivers his roundhouse closing (I do expect it to be a very large and decisive clobber at Oscar's defense).
 
I think there’s a lot of misunderstanding about the appeal process. Hopefully the attached link will inform you as much as it did me.

The court of appeal will not be judging the case again, only deciding whether the conviction is ‘unsafe’. In order for a conviction or a sentence to be overturned, the appeals court not only must find that an error occurred, but also that the error was clear and serious enough to affect the outcome of the trial.

A criminal conviction can be appealed on the basis that the strength of the evidence presented at trial did not support the verdict. This type of appeal is significantly more expensive and much more lengthy than a legal error appeal and even more rarely successful. From all I’ve read, very few criminal trial appeals are successful, especially for murder.

The attached link covers everything you probably want to know about appeals from the Supreme Court in South Africa. You’ll need to scroll down about two-thirds of the way to Appeals from the Supreme Court.

http://www.legalcity.net/Index.cfm?fuseaction=RIGHTS.article&ArticleID=6400430
 
Val1 said:
All I had grabbed from the video before it went awol again was this image of the fans.. they look the same to me as the ones lisasalinger has in her blog from the evidence pics.

View attachment 54476

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/
View attachment 54477
View attachment 54478
Click to expand...

I have a whole bunch of screen grabs from the video that I will post on my blog later tonight. I posted a few the other day, will spend more time on it later tonight so those you still haven't seen the video can at least get a better idea of the reenactment/animation.
 
Viper said:
It has been said here that Uncle Arnold has millions and millions of dollars and could bankroll the legal fees easily and willingly. Ok, lets say that is true. But if so, then why did he not step in to help? OP apparently has had to sell off everything from his horses to his own home. OP is now pennyless and is living with a wealthy close relative. He's also unemployed and has no job prospects. And he has psychological issues, including the fact that he is a suicide risk and he is a danger to others if he has access to a gun, per Dr. V. He is a single man with no wife and no children. If he is convicted and Masipa gives him 15-25 years in prison, is he a flight risk?

BTW, why did OP sell his house in the middle of the trial, when things were not going so well? Uncle Arnold surely could have stepped in with a loan or a gift for the same amount.
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He'll have a job - when he gets out of prison, eventually. According to public company records, Hendrik and his sons, Theo (67), Arnold (62) and Leo (51) own about 120 companies that are actively doing business. Arnold is a director of a number of affiliates of the Twin City property group, which runs resorts including one in the Austrian ski town of Hockrimml and a Lowveld game reserve with two luxury lodges.

Deeds office records show that one of the Pistorius family companies, Omay Investments, owns a farm in the Mokopane area valued by the municipality at R3,3 million. Company records also reveal seven plots in Annlin, Pretoria and a bottlestore in Lephalale.

Because company records are not always up to date, sister paper Beeld asked the family if the records were accurate. They declined to comment, with Arnold saying they were still in mourning.

http://www.witness.co.za/index.php?showcontent&global[_id]=96515

I didn't like seeing that Uncle Arnold owns a game reserve. That means the animals will be on the receiving end of zombie stoppers.

:tears:
 
Judgejudi said:
I think there’s a lot of misunderstanding about the appeal process.

The court of appeal will not be judging the case again, only deciding whether the conviction is ‘unsafe’. In order for a conviction or a sentence to be overturned, the appeals court not only must find that an error occurred, but also that the error was clear and serious enough to affect the outcome of the trial.

A criminal conviction can be appealed on the basis that the strength of the evidence presented at trial did not support the verdict. This type of appeal is significantly more expensive and much more lengthy than a legal error appeal and even more rarely successful. From all I’ve read, very few criminal trial appeals are successful, especially for murder.

The attached link covers everything you probably want to know about appeals from the Supreme Court in South Africa. You’ll need to scroll down about two-thirds of the way to Appeals from the Supreme Court.

http://www.legalcity.net/Index.cfm?fuseaction=RIGHTS.article&ArticleID=6400430
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My guess OP's Appeal will include both, errors in facts and errors in Law… error in facts will be more plentiful than the errors in Law.

Also would not be surprised if DT has some "newly discovered" exculpatory evidence to present.

OP's case being a circumstantial evidence case makes the verdict that much more likely to be considered and approved for an Appeal.

The televising of the Trial will surely be a major point of contention.

All IMO
 
<Respectfully snipped>

Viper said:
Here is a link to very similar murderer trying to get bail while on appeal after her conviction. Wollie and Mangena battle again, Mangena wins of course. Spoiler alert: she was denied bail:

http://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZASCA/2013/1.pdf
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I so miss seeing Mangena. He looks like such a cheeky, happy chappy. Always had that big smile on his face.
 
AlwaysShocked said:
Oh my, yes, whiterum. That particular picture was just gut-wrenching. The loneliness of it. I had not seen it before. And when I looked at it, I hoped her parents did not see that picture.

-------------------------

Can anyone run it past me one more time what the role is of the two assistants to the judge? Do they just get to assist her with evidence and case law or do they actually get to tell her their own opinion but then she gets to make the final decision?

I've never been really clear on how this works.
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I was really quite upset seeing that photo too. It really drives home who is the victim in this trial doesn't it.

The assessors are there to help the judge decide whether Pistorius is guilty or not. They are usually former magistrates and advocates, and in many cases, academics much like Mazibuko. Both Mazibuko and Henzen-du Toit sit with Judge Masipa during the proceedings and listen to all the evidence presented to her. The assessors are only there to help the judge decide the verdict. "They are only meant [to] try on the facts and can overrule the judge. But they can only overrule her on the facts. When it comes to sentencing they play no role whatsoever."

According to Professor Annette van der Merwe, a criminal procedure law expert at the University of Pretoria, if the two assessors were to rule in favour of murder, or the judge and one assessor were to rule so, that verdict would be the accepted one. The same would apply if two of them were to rule in favour of an acquittal.
 
AJ_DS said:
Great link… but circumstances are significantly different in OP's case IMO

All you have stated makes sense

Consider these additional points :

- OP is very recognizable… he was so before the event and even more after the event… not easy to hide when your face is so well known and your a double amputee

- His large family is implanted in SA for many generations and have deep ties and roots to SA, the community, etc… they would all vouch for OP with a stack of affidavits

- The conditions of his bail could be adjusted to take into account the post-verdict situation… e.g. no passport, no leaving the country, house arrest, electronic monitoring, larger bail amount, etc… many available options

- Not sure about the no income… his bail affidavit stated that his income was about $560,000 per annum… no details about this income… surely some or all of it was from sponsors… some or all could be gone but maybe not.

- OP has shown that he has respected the conditions of his bail so far… so no immediate reason to doubt that he would not continue to do so.

- The merits and foreseeable success of his Appeal would also play a role
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:floorlaugh: Sorry, this made me laugh as I can just imagine him having an electronic tag attached to one of his prostheses and him conveniently leaving it at home. I guess there must be other methods of tagging.
 
There was one thing that I couldn't understand about this trial.

OP had approached Gina Myers and said how can she sleep at night or words to that extent.

What was the context behind this, why would he have said this to her. There was a lot of material on Google about how appropriate it was that OP approached her, but I never really came across any reason as to why he said this.

Any thoughts?
 
Judgejudi said:
Yep Viper, I made a big error which I've corrected with a subsequent post. Shouldn't have jumped in too early. I have made amends.
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Pfft, just ignore anything that I post in the evening after I've had a few Bourbons, I'm an obnoxious drunk!
:pillowfight2:
 
Interested Bystander said:
:floorlaugh: Sorry, this made me laugh as I can just imagine him having an electronic tag attached to one of his prostheses and him conveniently leaving it at home. I guess there must be other methods of tagging.
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LOL&#8230; did not even consider that when I wrote it&#8230; but quite funny !!:drumroll:
 
QUOTE=Val1;10724489]Anyone else having trouble posting? It keeps telling me to refresh the page that the token has expired...[/QUOTE]

What??? :floorlaugh: The pop-up that really had me going was the one asking if I wanted to stay on the same page. I thought I did, but the way it works, I guess I didn't. I've had a post appear twice. When the auto-save thing was happening and I was in the middle of quoting a post I ended up having bits of the quote repeated twice, and I've lost posts mid-way through typing them. After logging in it dropped out many times one day and I only noticed that because Thanks had disappeared. I'm just waiting for the token thing now. All I can suggest if your refresh doesn't fix it, try going backward or forward a page because sometimes helps.

All I can say about the upgrade now is ... if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

:floorlaugh: :tantrum:
 
Judgejudi said:
Absolutely. I also think expert witnesses will think twice and that $250 a day isn't worth the potential damage to their reputation.

OT: Welcome back. Haven't seen you here for some time and have missed your input.
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Judi, where did you get the $250/day figure from? In the U.S. expert fees vary based on experience, but all charge well over $250/day.

The forensic pathologist hired by the defense in the Zimmerman trial charged $2,400 USD for his work before testifying, which was actually a low fee because he said that particular case was not forensically complicated at all. That same expert was hired by the defense in the Phil Spector trial and charged over $25,000 USD in consulting fees.

An expert witness must have qualifications with specific scientific, technical, or other specialized knowledge. They are experts in their field. If they fear risk to their reputation by testifying in a trial, then they're probably not competent to begin with.

Roux's claim of witnesses who wouldn't testify because the trial was televised were definitely not experts. True experts write books, scholarly journal articles, give speeches, etc. They share their expertise publicly; that's what experts do. Any expert the DT hired but didn't call to testify was because they would hurt their case (the star forensic pathologist whose post-mortem findings supported the PT, the forensic investigator who made the animation which contradicted aspects of OP's version).

The only potential witnesses the DT could have called who allegedly refused to testify because it was televised would be neighbors who probably claimed they either heard nothing or didn't hear a woman scream. As I said yesterday, if the DT truly felt these so-called witnesses were crucial to their case, they would have explained the circumstances to milady and requested that the TV cameras and audio be turned off for their testimony. She did not allow TV or audio during the state pathologist's testimony due to the sensitive nature of it, so I don't see her refusing to do the same for civilian DT witnesses had they requested it.
 
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