Trial Discussion Thread #48

[katydid23]

If Frank was going to testify that he truly heard nothing, then that hurts the state. That could mean there was no loud screaming match leading up to the tragedy. So I could see why Nel might not call him.

But it seems so damning that OP never reached out to Frank that night. First, during the 'break-in.' He could have called out to Frank for help. Didnt Frank have a cell or a landline?

And why call Stander for help moving your dying girlfriend when you have a strong employee just downstairs? I will never understand that.

And I don't get why Nel allowed OP to testify that no one else was in the home that night. Talk about the elephant in the room. Shouldnt it have been stipulated that there was an employee, but he was deaf and blind?

 

[Greater Than]

OMG... when that photo link first opened, I thought OP was naked!!!!! LOL Am I alone in having thought that??

Lux, did you white-out the faces of his friends or were they already whited-out?

Hmm... I'm guessing here that the "pbs" stands for something other than Public Broadcasting station...??

BIB - pbs.twimg.com is an image hosting site. It's primarily utilized by twitter users.

 

[G.bng]

G.bng, I would very much like to review your timeline, but even using the link provided I am unable to render a readable doc. Thanks, M_L.

Sorry ML, I checked the link and it works for me at least. Now once the link gets you to the timeline's PB page I presume you see a slightly smaller image to the one here. If you do there should be magnifying glass icon in the bottom right hand corner of the image which you click and up should come a floating window of the image with yet another magnifying glass icon in the bottom right hand corner which if you click that as well the timeline should open full screen at a readable size just that as it is very wide it won't all fit so you have to scroll along with the bottom scroll lbar view it in stages.

Or I could be completely off track here and you have your pc, screen or whatever set to low resolution in which case as the text is small it would probably not work well. If not maybe I can send you a .png through PM as it's only 300k or so so doesn't occupy space.

Don't know if any of this helps.

 

[G.bng]

G.bng, I would very much like to review your timeline, but even using the link provided I am unable to render a readable doc. Thanks, M_L.

Just realised, you don't have to click the text link (last time I bother putting one) since simply clicking the image opens up a new window on the timeline's page in photobucket. And then clicking magnifying glasses from there. Hope it works.

 

[G.bng]

If Frank was going to testify that he truly heard nothing, then that hurts the state. That could mean there was no loud screaming match leading up to the tragedy. So I could see why Nel might not call him.

But it seems so damning that OP never reached out to Frank that night. First, during the 'break-in.' He could have called out to Frank for help. Didnt Frank have a cell or a landline?

And why call Stander for help moving your dying girlfriend when you have a strong employee just downstairs? I will never understand that.

And I don't get why Nel allowed OP to testify that no one else was in the home that night. Talk about the elephant in the room. Shouldnt it have been stipulated that there was an employee, but he was deaf and blind?

Please, what do you mean "hurt the state" and you could "see why Nel might not call him" !!!

You really are doing Nel a great disservice. Do you really think the State or Nel or the courts are in the business of putting innocent people in prison? Would that be justice?

Justice is not a competition even if the English system is adversarial the aim of a trial is to get to the truth. I mean Just say as you note that Nel was aware that Frank had been wide awake and could truthfully testify there was no screaming whatsoever except OP's that night. What kind of human being do you think Nel would be if he purposefully didn't call Frank just so it wouldn't "hurt" his case so he could "win" and take the credit while putting an innocent person in jail. Do you really think that is how justice works and if you do then look inside and tell me what kind of justice would that be.

 

[redheart]

Please, what do you mean "hurt the state" and you could "see why Nel might not call him" !!!

You really are doing Nel a great disservice. Do you really think the State or Nel or the courts are in the business of putting innocent people in prison? Would that be justice?

Justice is not a competition even if the English system is adversarial the aim of a trial is to get to the truth. I mean Just say as you note that Nel was aware that Frank had been wide awake and could truthfully testify there was no screaming whatsoever except OP's that night. What kind of human being do you think Nel would be if he purposefully didn't call Frank just so it wouldn't "hurt" his case so he could "win" and take the credit while putting an innocent person in jail. Do you really think that is how justice works and if you do then look inside and tell me what kind of justice would that be.

I think the point is that Nel would know that Frank's testimony of "not hearing a thing" is paid for by the Pistorius clan, er....unreliable.

 

[kittychi]

He's been the state's saving grace. When he first rattled through the state's case and ended his witnesses, I honestly thought "Is that it? Is that all the state have?" but how wrong I was! Nel had the foresight to know he couldn't put Hilton Botha on the stand, he knew he had to get around the police 'tampering' (or lack of it ) and he absolutely knew that OP would destroy himself in the witness box. I'll bet Marcia Clark and Chris Darden wish he was on their team when prosecuting OJ!

I was thinking of OP's 'celebrity' status the other day and how he could very nearly have got away with this completely were it not for Hilton Botha - who knew there was something wrong with OP's story. If any of those police officers were OP fans, he could quite easily have been believed and been allowed walk free.

I found this article about OP visiting Mandela where his family were "annoyed and disappointed" because he wasn't allowed to take his gun with him!

http://africasacountry.com/oscar-pi...-to-visit-ailing-mandela-but-without-his-gun/

The article was posted on 26th September 2013 so was only a few months after Reeva's death and his family think OP should have been allowed
to take a lethal weapon into the home of probably the most loved man on the planet? What I'm getting from that article is the implication that OP must have still had access to guns if they had to broach the subject with Mandela's security in the first place. If his family were so afraid of
the 'crazy crime' in Jo'burg then one of them could have taken along a gun and sat in the car until OP's visit was over - or used the armed security guard whose apparently stood outside OP's bedroom at Uncle Arnold's every night since Reeva was murdered.

That article turned out to be satire, kaos, though they sure didn't make that clear! If you look at comments below it, you will see some discussion of that.

 

[kittychi]

Oscar partying with buddies in Mozambique December 2013.

Honestly, does this look like a "heartbroken", "depressed", "suicidal" man?!!

(Perhaps it's the SMILE that gives him away?)

I also seriously question the morals and character of his friends, too.

Hah! I wonder if his friends requested to have their faces blocked. I would have! I wonder who those blokes are.

I read recently that Uncle Arnold owns property there.

 

[kittychi]

Please, what do you mean "hurt the state" and you could "see why Nel might not call him" !!!

You really are doing Nel a great disservice. Do you really think the State or Nel or the courts are in the business of putting innocent people in prison? Would that be justice?

Justice is not a competition even if the English system is adversarial the aim of a trial is to get to the truth. I mean Just say as you note that Nel was aware that Frank had been wide awake and could truthfully testify there was no screaming whatsoever except OP's that night. What kind of human being do you think Nel would be if he purposefully didn't call Frank just so it wouldn't "hurt" his case so he could "win" and take the credit while putting an innocent person in jail. Do you really think that is how justice works and if you do then look inside and tell me what kind of justice would that be.

Do you really believe that Frank heard nothing, being right in the building yet other witnesses in the neighborhood heard blood curdling screams?

He gave a statement to police that he heard nothing. Why would Nel call him? To try to get him to say something different in court than he told police? Why would he call anyone that he doesn't think would support his case?

 

[AJ_DS]

For anyone interested posting my visual timeline, ( "Oscar Pistorius - Timeline 14 February 2013 - 1.56 am to 3.30 am" ), I finally managed to finish in time for closings based on all the ear-witness testimonies (not Motshuane since she gave no times). I worked on it as I went listening and transcribing bit by bit earwitness testimonies over the past months so I think I have most times, details, etc., correct and where I had to approximate or calculate I've given the whys and wheres but also tried to keep my opinion to a minimum as it was not to create a debate but to help visualise how from my workings the testimonies piece together.

Obviously there will be things I missed or got wrong so welcome any corrections or anything of real importance I missed (if I can fit anything else on it!) but please PM me any corrections or additions with a link and/or post number so I can check it out first as I don't always have time to keep up with the thread so may not find anything until past judgement, if ever!

​

The upload here is just a preview to show what it's about because it is unreadable so included link to it in photobucket with it's title title at the beginning of the post where it can be viewed and read by scrolling along but unfortunately AFAIK there are no options for enlarging or reducing so if anyone knows a better host would love to know. I already tried docdroid as a pdf which is so much better as you can select different viewing sizes but for some quirky reason the dotted time lines transfer as solid ones so it looks more like a typographic Mondrian or a constructivist artwork than a timeline so am trying to work out how to resolve the problem... any ideas? If I get the pdf problem sorted will post if anyone interested.

Impressive chart to say the least… but I would hope the many 'mistakes' it contains are not the result of a lack of objectivity or worse, purposeful bias.

After further examination… there isn't much right in this chart !!

 

[Lux et Veritas]

Question -

If OP is convicted, will he be automatically sent to jail pending approval of his new bail application?

What do you think are his chances for getting bail a second go round? Same conditions, worse? Denied?

If granted bail after conviction and before the appeal, do you think he'd flee SA?

 

[44ALLAN]

If Frank was going to testify that he truly heard nothing, then that hurts the state. That could mean there was no loud screaming match leading up to the tragedy. So I could see why Nel might not call him.

But it seems so damning that OP never reached out to Frank that night. First, during the 'break-in.' He could have called out to Frank for help. Didnt Frank have a cell or a landline?

And why call Stander for help moving your dying girlfriend when you have a strong employee just downstairs? I will never understand that.

And I don't get why Nel allowed OP to testify that no one else was in the home that night. Talk about the elephant in the room. Shouldnt it have been stipulated that there was an employee, but he was deaf and blind?

But.................put yourself in Franks position on the night.
I doubt he was still lying in bed from 1.56am, with all the shouting going on,then up to 3.15'ish with all the thuds then gunshots !!
He'll have legged it like any normal person would have done and only come back when security showed up.
Either that or he would have locked his door and hid under the bed.
I doubt he would have popped his head around the door to ask OP what all the noise was about somehow

 

[Interested Bystander]

Question -

If OP is convicted, will he be automatically sent to jail pending approval of his new bail application?

I am guessing the Judge Masipa will be able to determine whether his bail is continued. I have read that if the accused was given bail at his original BH that it can be continued until the appeal but I cannot now find the info I read but will continue searching.

Here is the SA Criminal Procedure Act which has a great deal on bail but I have not been able to track down the specific question you ask. I am sure it is there but I cannot find it at the moment. Some of it makes interesting reading. I am surprised OP was given bail when I read some of the conditions that can prevent bail'

http://www.acts.co.za/criminal-procedure-act-1977/

What do you think are his chances for getting bail a second go round? Same conditions, worse? Denied?

I think he will get bail, maybe with some of the original conditions added back in

If granted bail after conviction and before the appeal, do you think he'd flee SA?

I think he will stay with his family until the very end BUT I think when the appeal draws near he may take a very long holiday in Mozambique BUT WHAT DO I KNOW - LOL!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_procedure_in_South_Africa
Bail pending appeal
When an appeal against a conviction or sentence or order of a lower court is noted, this does not automatically suspend the operation of the sentence unless the court releases the convicted person on bail.[120] If the convicted person was out on bail for trial, the court granting bail pending appeal (or review) may extend bail, in the same amount or in any other amount

 

[james83]

Please, what do you mean "hurt the state" and you could "see why Nel might not call him" !!!

You really are doing Nel a great disservice. Do you really think the State or Nel or the courts are in the business of putting innocent people in prison? Would that be justice?

Justice is not a competition even if the English system is adversarial the aim of a trial is to get to the truth. I mean Just say as you note that Nel was aware that Frank had been wide awake and could truthfully testify there was no screaming whatsoever except OP's that night. What kind of human being do you think Nel would be if he purposefully didn't call Frank just so it wouldn't "hurt" his case so he could "win" and take the credit while putting an innocent person in jail. Do you really think that is how justice works and if you do then look inside and tell me what kind of justice would that be.

Lol, so you don't think maybe that Frank could be lying, i think that says a lot regarding Bias.

 

[wb180]

Do you really believe that Frank heard nothing, being right in the building yet other witnesses in the neighborhood heard blood curdling screams?

He gave a statement to police that he heard nothing. Why would Nel call him? To try to get him to say something different in court than he told police? Why would he call anyone that he doesn't think would support his case?

Agreed with u. We all know he heard something. If Frank really didn't hear anything, Roux would have called him to refute women screaming, gun shots etc because he would be the best witness for OP. But Roux didn't and had to resort to pretty crappy witnesses.

 

[wb180]

His father [Henke] refused to make a statement in the case and thus did not confirm or deny that the [.38] ammunition belonged to him.
http://www.dispatchlive.co.za/news/...rial-what-to-expect-in-the-closing-arguments/

It just really struck me what a totally useless chickensh#t OP’s father is.

Like his son, he doesn’t have the cojones to tell the truth - or anything, for that matter. He will not protect OP and he will not rat him out. Henke should have been hauled before the court to declare if that ammo was indeed his or not. How friggin hard is that? Yes or No. His simple answer would have shed serious light on at least one aspect of this case.

On a side note, this is one of the most baffling, frustrating and yes, disturbing parts about the SA justice system. Why is everyone SO unwilling to force (critical) witnesses to the stand? An innocent woman is DEAD - witnesses should not have the option to simply bow out.

Don't think his father is scared. More like he is stuck in the middle. He knows the ammo wasn't his but can't make a statement to say that as at the end of the day, his own son is on trial. He doesn't want to lie on statement since maybe someone might pick up on this with some new evidence that the ammo wasn't his and charge him with perjury. So he keeps quiet and not make a statement.

 

[jay-jay]

I wonder if OP is watching the Commonwealth Games at the moment? The final of the 400m is this evening, which he would've no doubt been running in if he hadn't killed Reeva and been on trial for murder. His buddy (ex buddy? .. wonder if they are still friends .. doubt it!) Martyn Rooney* will be running in it (he came in first in the heats last night). He must be feeling pig sick right now .. good!


*he is the one who was staying with OP less than a week before he killed Reeva, and Reeva tweeted that she and OP were enjoying his company so much, she wanted to kidnap him https://twitter.com/reevasteenkamp/status/300319882812223488

 

[AJ_DS]

Do you really believe that Frank heard nothing, being right in the building yet other witnesses in the neighborhood heard blood curdling screams?

He gave a statement to police that he heard nothing. Why would Nel call him? To try to get him to say something different in court than he told police? Why would he call anyone that he doesn't think would support his case?

1. I too find Frank's absence from both PT and DT's case odd… the only thing that could explain this IMO is that Frank was an unpredictable 'wild card'… If forcefully brought before the Court by the PT, Frank could go the way of loyalty to his former employer and say he heard nothing which would damage the the PT's case… If forcefully brought before the Court by the DT, Frank could possibly crack under cross-examination and confess it all which would destroy the DT's case.

With such uncertainty and high stakes outcome, both PT and DT chose not to use Frank.

2. To be fair, Mike the neighbor and his wife also heard nothing but the very last gunshot… nothing before that… no bat strikes, no blood curdling screams, etc… and their bedroom window is a mere 9 meters away from OP's bathroom window (IIRC)… they slept through it all… so it is not impossible that Frank could have been asleep as well.

 

[jay-jay]

By the way, it's only just a smidge over a week to go before the defence and prosecution present their closing arguments :scared:

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

For anyone interested posting my visual timeline, ( "Oscar Pistorius - Timeline 14 February 2013 - 1.56 am to 3.30 am" ), I finally managed to finish in time for closings based on all the ear-witness testimonies (not Motshuane since she gave no times). I worked on it as I went listening and transcribing bit by bit earwitness testimonies over the past months so I think I have most times, details, etc., correct and where I had to approximate or calculate I've given the whys and wheres but also tried to keep my opinion to a minimum as it was not to create a debate but to help visualise how from my workings the testimonies piece together.

Obviously there will be things I missed or got wrong so welcome any corrections or anything of real importance I missed (if I can fit anything else on it!) but please PM me any corrections or additions with a link and/or post number so I can check it out first as I don't always have time to keep up with the thread so may not find anything until past judgement, if ever!

​

The upload here is just a preview to show what it's about because it is unreadable so included link to it in photobucket with it's title title at the beginning of the post where it can be viewed and read by scrolling along but unfortunately AFAIK there are no options for enlarging or reducing so if anyone knows a better host would love to know. I already tried docdroid as a pdf which is so much better as you can select different viewing sizes but for some quirky reason the dotted time lines transfer as solid ones so it looks more like a typographic Mondrian or a constructivist artwork than a timeline so am trying to work out how to resolve the problem... any ideas? If I get the pdf problem sorted will post if anyone interested.

Good chart G.bng..

But the most damning 01:48:48 – GPRS – 309 seconds internet activity of 0020 phone of OP not included in the timeline to say the least ?