Trial Discussion Thread #53 - 14.12.9, Day 42 ~ final verdict~

[Feynman]

Masipa used the following quote from case law in expanding on her rationale for not finding OP guilty of Murder Dolus Eventualis:

“Subjective foresight, like any other factual issue, may be proved by inference to constitute proof beyond reasonable doubt. The inference must be the only one that can reasonably be drawn. It cannot be so drawn if there is a reasonable possibility that subjectively the accused did not foresee, even if he ought reasonably to have done so and even if he probably did do so.”

I’m still trying to fully understand it but I’m wondering if she felt that a verdict of Dolus Eventualis would be easily overturned by an appeal court by using this same case law and that a verdict of culpable homicide was therefore more secure. If so, I expect her sentence to be harsher than others are perhaps expecting.

I think the issue here is that the judge has to abide by the law and precedent; setting precedent herself would be more vulnerable to a successful appeal. She repeatedly said the onus was on the State to prove beyond reasonable doubt and she found that it had not.

That at least makes some sense. It also suggests that Roux's tactic of psychiatrists, GAD, fight or flight, whatever ... - no matter how discredited some of this testimony was - might have sown a seed of doubt in the judge's mind that OP can be held to the same level of "reasonableness" as an average person. If so, Roux was playing a patient long game, the value of which may have shown itself right here at the very end in aquitting OP of dolus eventualis.

Thanks Mr. Fossil for your thoughtful contributions on these boards.

 

[bajas]

I agree with the judge's ruling. The law is the law. I notice that those who were excited about Masipa being appointed the judge in this case are the same ones criticising and ridiculing her for her judgement. The way I see it, the criticism should instead be levelled at the prosecution because they didn't do a good enough job. The state must prove all elements of the offence beyond a reasonable doubt and they didn't do that. JMO

 

[geevee]

In order for Masipa to be right (and accept OP's version), she has to believe that Reeva just stood in the toilet closet mute while Oscar was outside screaming his fool head off to call the police. I'll never understand how she could possibly believe that.

 

[ApplesInMyBra]

The NPA has issued a statement yesterday saying that they are awaiting the sentencing from Masipa. I think that is important, that they said something right away yesterday. If Masipa does not give OP a sentence towards the upper end of 15 years then the NPA is going to appeal her verdicts and her sentencing, it would not be the first time that prosecutors have had to do it. Stay tuned...

I sincerely hope this happens!

 

[Chelly]

wow. 'further complications?' just wow.

Wouldn't it be more 'normal' for the judge to speak to the GROWN UP defendant, and warn him that if he had anymore issues before his next court date, his bail could be rescinded? But instead, she warns his uncle, who is his babysitter apparently, that it's essential to avoid any further complications.

ESSENTIAL for what? For her efforts to keep him out of jail?

Nicely said.

 

[Chelly]

Here is today's video production of and by Arnold, for all you masochists out there:

http://youtu.be/CWrBKFj61DQ

uke:

Oh just elfin shoot me! The gaul of thanking Judge Masipa for her verdict !

 

[pandax81]

In order for Masipa to be right (and accept OP's version), she has to believe that Reeva just stood in the toilet closet mute while Oscar was outside screaming his fool head off to call the police. I'll never understand how she could possibly believe that.

And OP didn't think he could have killed anybody, but when he realised it was Reeva he screamed horrendously like a girl and never before and smashed down the door, then at the exact moment he struck it for the last time and got the shock of his life seeing her dying/dead with horrific injuries his reaction was to stop screaming....

 

[jay-jay]

Sorry if this has been posted.

Reeva Steenkamp’s Parents Say ‘Justice Was Not Served’ in Oscar Pistorius Verdict

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/pi...ps-parents-say-justice-was-not-served-n202081


ETA - there is a short video segment here.

I'm a bit concerned for them there that they have said they are now ready to meet with Pistorius .. I know they feel they need to do it in order to try and find out the truth, but they will be wasting their precious energy on it because he is never going to tell them, or anyone else for that matter .. he will go to his grave with his 'secret'.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I will never feel that justice has been done, regardless of whether he gets the max sentence for CH, because it has not been acknowledged and officially recorded that he knowingly killed Reeva that night after an argument .. which is most definitely what happened, no question about it.

OP wanted to silence her because he had previously done a lot of her (hours before shooting), which ought to be premeditated murder. If I were Reeva's poor mother/father/siblings I would have expected this.

 

[whiterum]

<modsnip>

An obvious control freak and judging by the emails , the same behaviour was surfacing with Reeva but she was not knuckling under. IMO he knew who was behind that door and he fired in the throws of rage.

 

[Interested Bystander]

wow. 'further complications?' just wow.

Wouldn't it be more 'normal' for the judge to speak to the GROWN UP defendant, and warn him that if he had anymore issues before his next court date, his bail could be rescinded? But instead, she warns his uncle, who is his babysitter apparently, that it's essential to avoid any further complications.

ESSENTIAL for what? For her efforts to keep him out of jail?

It seems to me that she has taken Oscar under her wing like a mother (read grandmother) hen. Totally inappropriate; he is a murderer. This attitude has been pervasive throughout his trial and is why we are where we are. Time to pension her off if she cannot leave her social worker hat behind. She comes across as a pleasant woman but not really up to this type of trial. She has too much sympathy for Oscar. Emotions have clouded her judgement and it cannot be right to let this happen again.

 

[soozieqtips]

Didn't Derman or Dr Vorster state that OP wanted to "nullify" the threat?

Is that not intent?

 

[Interested Bystander]

Didn't Derman or Dr Vorster state that OP wanted to "nullify" the threat?

Is that not intent?

Derman I think.

 

[Viper]

I agree with the judge's ruling. The law is the law. I notice that those who were excited about Masipa being appointed the judge in this case are the same ones criticising and ridiculing her for her judgement. The way I see it, the criticism should instead be levelled at the prosecution because they didn't do a good enough job. The state must prove all elements of the offence beyond a reasonable doubt and they didn't do that. JMO

Good for you in that you Agree with her ruling. And you are correct, the law is the law. Thankfully the law includes provisions for going above Masipa to higher courts to correct her errors in judgement.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Has anyone heard what his bail conditions are? If not does anyone know where to look for them. I have a nasty suspicion that they will be a continuation of his original bail which were culled heavily on appeal. In fact I cannot remember if anything was left in place. Maybe not carrying a gun? Even living at Uncle P's was removed, as well as reporting to any official body, and I think he could have moved back into his home on Silverwoods had he wanted to. He was allowed to drink and we all have seen where that gets him.

 

[luvmygarden]

Unfortunately op will always have a free ride and his freedom..This trial proved it.
Murder the ultimate offense and he Walks.
So sorry Reeva, You are important to us and your family and friends. God Bless you

 

[ApplesInMyBra]

Derman I think.

Yup, Derman:
http://dailyindependentnig.com/2014...ired-gun-nullify-threat-says-defence-witness/

 

[soozieqtips]

Sky just said a close friend of Reeva is going to talk about the verdict in a few minutes.

Would that be Gina Myers?

 

[Cloen]

So the Judge thought Oscar was a poor witness, yet believed his version:tantrum: - ,Many Legal pundits are saying she was wrong with her Ruling of CH and there was enough evidence that were facts, common cause for a Dolus Eventualis Charge. Some are saying that the Verdict is an embarrassment to SA Legal System and will be even moreso if Oscar doesn't get a prison term. With 4 shots being fired at that door, whoever was behind that door stood no chance and he had to have foreseen the possibility he would cause the death of whoever was behind it. That toilet was a tiny cubicle. I remain gobsmacked, and hope he gets a prison term minimum 8 years. Reeva's parents have given an interview at how disappointed they are-
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-cleared-murdering-lover-Reeva-Steenkamp.html

There was Oscar's Uncle in Court giving another damage limitation speech on behalf of Oscar, saying they always believed his version (cough, I don't believe that)- I think they should count themselves lucky to be fair that he wasn't given what most pundits have said should have been a Murder Charge - Their arrogance astounds me. I can imagine in mitigation IF he gets a sentence that one reason will be so their ex-hero can get back to training in readiness for the Olympics representing South Africa again.

Thanks to DS (Daka) This is very interesting , Legal discussion from Oscar Trial 199 following Verdict today (apologies if already posted)
Bongani Bingwa with David Dadic and James Aveyard:
https://soundcloud.com/giles-10/bongani-1/s-N4Uuj
William Booth with Bongani,
https://soundcloud.com/giles-10/william-booth/s-6p35r
I've not been a fan of William Booth, and I think Martin Hood on Sky News was spot on, but this is still an interesting audio.

 

[ApplesInMyBra]

So what other trials are you following (now that the door has shut on this one)?