Trial Discussion Thread #6 - 14.03.13-14, Day 9-10

[curiousjo]

Yes in a mag article Botha states when he arrived OP was in garage wearing bloodt tshirt and shorts. He also said he thought OP was guilty.

RV was not planning to stay over. She was coming for dinner and drop off VDay gift. She sent text to her uncle; "Hi guys, I’m too tired. It’s too far to drive. I’m sleeping at Oscar’s tonight. See you tomorrow."

So they had not dated long. Had not spent any holidays togather - and no plans forVDay if leaving gift that night . I wonder if there had been any sex by that point in relationship .

 

[steveml]

I can understand his sister Aimee collecting clothes for Pistorius, as presumably he would need these to wear a short while later. The request for a watch is something I find hard to get my head around. With all the blood and carnage throughout the house, and having just shot my girlfriend, I'm not sure my thoughts would be so rational as to make sure I had a watch. This is something which you would normally expect someone to request hours later, after having been taken into custody and issuing a statement etc.

Something tells me the watch/watches may have a bigger part to play at some stage in the proceedings.

 

[canny]

Is an investigating officer (Botha) higher than a Lt. Col?

You may be right about who is superior in rank, but in my opinion it was Rensburg's duty to boot out all OP's friends and relatives from the house as soon as he arrived.

 

[FrancesB]

I think that was what he tried to say, but Roux managed to muddy up the timeline (for me). Something about Botha being with him upstairs with OP waiting in the kitchen, but then Botha supposedly not arriving until OP was in the garage? I found it all very confusing - hope the judge is better at keeping track than me!

Absolutely, Roux managed to confuse, but didn't take it to its final, ultimate and possibly bloody conclusion (possibly for Pistorius). Perhaps Roux feared taking it to its final conclusion, he certainly would rather question Botha, and Botha is incapable of holding his ground, as seen at bail hearing.

 

[FrancesB]

You may be right about who is superior in rank, but in my opinion it was Rensburg's duty to boot out all OP's friends and relatives from the house as soon as he arrived.

As soon as Van Rensburg arrived, he put a stop on anyone (excluding police/forensics) there going upstairs, Once Van Rensburg got there, Pistorius, the Standers, Carl Pistorius were not allowed up there.

Aimee Pistorius was allowed up there at some point, but only escorted by a cop, and record was taken of what she did/removed.

 

[zwiebel]

Is Botha at the bail hearing available on video, or are there any transcripts/good articles? I haven't seen this.

 

[zwiebel]

As soon as Van Rensburg arrived, he put a stop on anyone (excluding police/forensics) there going upstairs, Once Van Rensburg got there, Pistorius, the Standers, Carl Pistorius were not allowed up there.

Aimee Pistorius was allowed up there at some point, but only escorted by a cop, and record was taken of what she did/removed.

But at some stage Botha, a photographer and maybe one other Constable were up there with him, I think? I recollect he said 'later' but this is where I got confused.

 

[lisasalinger]

As much as Roux's mannerisms are incredibly annoying, I have to admit that he is one heck of a defense attorney.

By the end of his cross-examinations, my head is running in circles.

With that said, I do still feel like I have the ability to strip away the tactics and get back to the facts on point but only because I've watched a lot of trials. Obviously, the Judge has even far greater ability to do this too (at least we should hope)

I'm really perplexed by why these lawyers don't use exhibits? I'm a big fan of details being put up on a video screen or a poster board to CLEARLY point out their findings.

One would think that Nel would want to get back to the basics after Roux goes on and on for hours. I feel like he just lets Roux get his points across and then he drops it. Is that part of his strategy?

Argh, it's making me nuts.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Yep, Roux did say that and that there was one on the previous day. I am assuming he has photos to prove this but more than a bit odd that there is no sign of it on his left shoulder, though VonR did say he could see something. I have assumed the red on his upper left arm is blood but maybe it is not. However I would not refer to that as his shoulder.

I thought I would add to this post of mine. I have since watched Alex Crawford's report and it is blood on his left arm but there is some red sports tape on his shoulder. I have no idea what sports tape is or does but I am sure lot of you will know.

 

[canny]

Was the photo of Van Rensburg taken after forensics had been there? Do you have a link to a clear photo of this? (the only one I have seen is so unclear, I'd like to see a clearer one, thanks, if you have a link to one). Van Rensburg was at the house Feb 14, 15, 16 and 17th, it would have helped a lot if the camera imprinted date/time on each photo.

I wish there was a simple transcript of the exact words of those in court, rather than tweets which don't give a full, unadulterated, straightforward transcript.

My point was that Senior Commanders should never be photographed seen touching evidence with bare heads under any circumstances.The forensic team must have taken hours to do their job, and retesting of evidence is always a distinct possibility in high profile murder investigations.

 

[zwiebel]

I never killed a loved one, so I don't know 'the norm' but I find it shocking that when police arrived OP was pacing the kitchen while Reeva's body lay unattended, covered in garbage bags, at the bottom of the stairs.

I have heard of loved ones simply refusing to let their obviously dead loved one go, and being ferocious in looking after them and protecting them, even though they no longer need it. Had Reeva's family been there, I cannot imagine them leaving her side until she was taken away, or they were.

 

[Interested Bystander]

It's OP's RIGHT shoulder that was in pain (allegedly).

Thank you. I had quite forgotten.

 

[zwiebel]

Sigh. I am afraid we are going to hear that a full, physical and photographically documentated examination of OP did not take place. Any scratches/wounds etc are long gone, or will be put down to sport injuries.....

 

[FrancesB]

But at some stage Botha, a photographer and maybe one other Constable were up there with him, I think? I recollect he said 'later' but this is where I got confused.

Yes, it is confusing and while it was on, I was taking screenshots and trying (and failing!) to type descriptions for each screenshot. That's why I can't understand why there isn't a straightforward, hones, unadulterated court transcript available, unless I have missed it?

Short of playing the whole thing back again, I am left confused. I might watch it all again and concentrate on a transcript rather than screenshots!

 

[sorrell skye]

Nel down. Roux requests question re officer's diary.

V says he does not have one. Just notes. And he destroyed them!

I was wondering if he had taken notes. So Von claims he did, but he destroyed them. Hmmmm... I wonder if he really did take notes. Since he claims he destroyed them, there's no way to verify if he did, in fact, take notes, unless someone whose word can be trusted observed him taking these notes.

Perhaps because he's no longer a police officer and once he'd written up his report on the case and handed it over to whoever he didn't feel the need to keep it? I'm guessing every country/force has their own protocol.

I'll assume for a minute that Von took notes as he walked through the crime scene (I'm skeptical, but I'll suspend my skepticism for a moment).

This was a very high profile case from the beginning. Now it's a very high profile murder trial involving SA's national sports hero the Blade Runner.

Surely Von was aware that he'd be called to testify, regardless of whether or not he was still on the police force. I doubt this is the first case in which he's provided testimony. I also doubt this is the first time a defense attorney has asked about his investigative notes during trial. If so, he must have anticipated that the matter of his notes would come up during this trial - the trial that has been dubbed by the media as SA's 'trial of the century'.

Based on the above, I find it curious that he claims to have destroyed his notes.

 

[FrancesB]

As much as Roux's mannerisms are incredibly annoying, I have to admit that he is one heck of a defense attorney.

By the end of his cross-examinations, my head is running in circles.

With that said, I do still feel like I have the ability to strip away the tactics and get back to the facts on point but only because I've watched a lot of trials. Obviously, the Judge has even far greater ability to do this too (at least we should hope)

I'm really perplexed by why these lawyers don't use exhibits? I'm a big fan of details being put up on a video screen or a poster board to CLEARLY point out their findings.

One would think that Nel would want to get back to the basics after Roux goes on and on for hours. I feel like he just lets Roux get his points across and then he drops it. Is that part of his strategy?

Argh, it's making me nuts.

What Roux is doing is par for the course.

Will Nel get the chance to question Pistorius?

 

[lisasalinger]

I was wondering if he had taken notes. So Von claims he did, but he destroyed them. Hmmmm... I wonder if he really did take notes. Since he claims he destroyed them, there's no way to verify if he did, in fact, take notes, unless someone whose word can be trusted observed him taking these notes.



I'll assume for a minute that Von took notes as he walked through the crime scene (I'm skeptical, but I'll suspend my skepticism for a moment).

This was a very high profile case from the beginning. Now it's a very high profile murder trial involving SA's national sports hero the Blade Runner.

Surely Von was aware that he'd be called to testify, regardless of whether or not he was still on the police force. I doubt this is the first case in which he's provided testimony. I also doubt this is the first time a defense attorney has asked about his investigative notes during trial. If so, he must have anticipated that the matter of his notes would come up during this trial - the trial that has been dubbed by the media as SA's 'trial of the century'.

Based on the above, I find it curious that he claims to have destroyed his notes.

From some cases I've seen in the past, I don't think it's necessarily highly suspect for personal notes to be destroyed. The officers use those notes to create their official statements and that is what goes on record. So throwing out notes after your statement is completed, I believe, is not a big deal. (I could be wrong about this though. Just my two cents)

 

[FrancesB]

Is Botha at the bail hearing available on video, or are there any transcripts/good articles? I haven't seen this.

There are some videos relating to Botha on youtube. He made a bit of an *advertiser censored* of himself, stupid mistakes. He should have been clarifying points before the bail hearing but he seemed too lazy.

I went to the Gemma McCluskie trial and the prosecutor was bang on the nail. Glad her brother was rightfully found guilty. Poor girl.

 

[lisasalinger]

What Roux is doing is par for the course.

Will Nel get the chance to question Pistorius?

If he takes the stand, absolutely. Just as Roux is cross-examining all of the State's witnesses, Nel has that same opportunity with the Defense witnesses.

 

[zwiebel]

Can you imagine the meal Roux would have made of any discrepancies between the notes and the official statements?