Trial Discussion Thread #6 - 14.03.13-14, Day 9-10

[soozieqtips]

Yes in a mag article Botha states when he arrived OP was in garage wearing bloodt tshirt and shorts. He also said he thought OP was guilty.

RV was not planning to stay over. She was coming for dinner and drop off VDay gift. She sent text to her uncle; "Hi guys, I’m too tired. It’s too far to drive. I’m sleeping at Oscar’s tonight. See you tomorrow."

So they had not dated long. Had not spent any holidays togather - and no plans forVDay if leaving gift that night.
I wonder if there had been any sex by that point in relationship .

BBM - It's not been established I don't think, but she'd stayed over the night before too, so make of that what you will. I think Botha said that since Reeva had slept over before, OP would have been used to any noises she made (making the 'intruder' story somewhat less than credible).

 

[Dmacky]

Can you imagine the meal Roux would have made of any discrepancies between the notes and the official statements?

OMG ~ I can hear him now "But that cannot be" x 5 :smile:

 

[FrancesB]

Can you imagine the meal Roux would have made of any discrepancies between the notes and the official statements?

Discrepancies are to be expected though, I mean, I listened to the trial this morning and can't remember, verbatim, what was said. I try to ensure that comments I make here are accurate, but accept that I may occasionally get it wrong. Everyone makes mistakes, including trained cops, it's whether the overall picture is clear, from all witnesses and evidence provided, to come to a conclusion.

Can't wait for Nel to cross examine Roux's client!

 

[MoonFlwr]

How can they not have timestamps on their police photos?

It's (S) Africa!

 

[canny]

It's OP's RIGHT shoulder that was in pain (allegedly).

Roux claimed OP's right shoulder was in pain therefore he slept on the left side, however Reeva overnight bag and flip flops were found on the left side of the bed. ST the "women scorned" said she too slept on the left side of the bed.The magazine holster and magazine were found in a bedside cabinet on the right side of the bed.Crucially the empty gun holster was found on the bedside table on the left side of the bed, yet Roux claims OP slept on the left side of the bed.

 

[soozieqtips]

What's really shocking to me is that a woman is dead, and that because of the Inspector Clouseau-style bumbling and buffoonery, justice might never be served due to mishandling of the crime scene. IF this was murder (and I think it was a heat-of-the-moment killing rather than premeditated for any length of time) then OP could go free. Having said that, some of these cops had been on duty for 24 hours, and I imagine must have felt totally worn out and less able to concentrate than if they'd been fresh from a night's sleep.

 

[sorrell skye]

From some cases I've seen in the past, I don't think it's necessarily highly suspect for personal notes to be destroyed. The officers use those notes to create their official statements and that is what goes on record. So throwing out notes after your statement is completed, I believe, is not a big deal. (I could be wrong about this though. Just my two cents)

I see what you mean.

But I've also seen cases where the investigating officer kept a journal of each case they followed and then kept those journals, if for no other reason than nostalgia, as they represent a sort of memoir of the investigator's work.

I think crime scene investigation was near & dear to Von. He choked up on the stand when Roux asked him questions related to whether or not he was still on the police force and what his current occupation is. It was evident that Von misses being a police officer.

Von testified that he didn't keep a journal of notes, but, at the same time, he said he took notes and then later destroyed those notes.

If he didn't keep a journal, I wonder what he jotted his notes in/on? Whatever scrap of paper was handy at the moment? A napkin? The palm of his hand? (I'm being facetious)

I'm still skeptical that he took notes, as he seemed to rely on his memory during his testimony, and there were some discrepancies between his two official statements (as Roux pointed out). IMO, if he had taken notes, his statements would have been more concise.

 

[zwiebel]

I haven't found a trial transcript but from part of OP's bail affidavit, I find the bolded bits interesting:

1: He returned to the bedroom to put on his legs, so it makes a little more sense he screamed for help from the balcony there instead of the bathroom window.

2: He went downstairs and left the door open for Standar and Netcare, despite his fear of burglars

3: He says he carried Reeva downstairs because he 'was told' to get her to hospital, but doesn't say by who - Standar or Netcare. Neither were there at the time, but these are the only two OP mentions calling.

4: He says he believes Reeva got out of bed when he was bringing in the fans from the balcony - so he is not saying he didn't notice she'd left the bed when he woke; he is effectively saying she 'snuck' out when he was outside, on the balcony. That's more credible, imo.

5: The word 'mortified' in the last para is entirely inappropriate, I think.

Part of BAIL AFFIDAVIT

On the 13th of February 2013 Reeva would have gone out with her friends and I with my friends. Reeva then called me and asked that we rather spend the evening at home. I agreed and we were content to have a quiet dinner together at home. By about 22h00 on 13 February 2013 we were in our bedroom. She was doing her yoga exercises and I was in bed watching television. My prosthetic legs were off. We were deeply in love and I could not be happier. I know she felt the same way. She had given me a present for Valentine's Day but asked me only to open it the next day.

After Reeva finished her yoga exercises she got into bed and we both fell asleep. I am acutely aware of violent crime being committed by intruders entering homes with a view to commit crime, including violent crime. I have received death threats before. I have also been a victim of violence and of burglaries before. For that reason I kept my firearm, a 9mm Parabellum, underneath my bed when I went to bed at night.

During the early morning hours of 14 February 2013, I woke up, went onto the balcony to bring the fan in and closed the sliding doors, the blinds and the curtains. I heard a noise in the bathroom and realised that someone was in the bathroom.

I felt a sense of terror rushing over me. There are no burglar bars across the bathroom window and I knew that contractors who worked at my house had left the ladders outside. Although I did not have my prosthetic legs on I have mobility on my stumps. I believed that someone had entered my house. I was too scared to switch a light on.

I grabbed my 9mm pistol from underneath my bed. On my way to the bathroom I screamed words to the effect for him/them to get out of my house and for Reeva to phone the police. It was pitch dark in the bedroom and I thought Reeva was in bed.

I noticed that the bathroom window was open. I realised that the intruder/s was/were in the toilet because the toilet door was closed and I did not see anyone in the bathroom. I heard movement inside the toilet. The toilet is inside the bathroom and has a separate door.

It filled me with horror and fear of an intruder or intruders being inside the toilet. I thought he or they must have entered through the unprotected window. As I did not have my prosthetic legs on and felt extremely vulnerable, I knew I had to protect Reeva and myself. I believed that when the intruder/s came out of the toilet we would be in grave danger. I felt trapped as my bedroom door was locked and I have limited mobility on my stumps.

I fired shots at the toilet door and shouted to Reeva to phone the police. She did not respond and I moved backwards out of the bathroom, keeping my eyes on the bathroom entrance. Everything was pitch dark in the bedroom and I was still too scared to switch on a light. Reeva was not responding. When I reached the bed, I realised that Reeva was not in bed. That is when it dawned on me that it could have been Reeva who was in the toilet. I returned to the bathroom calling her name. I tried to open the toilet door but it was locked. I rushed back into the bedroom and opened the sliding door exiting onto the balcony and screamed for help.

I put on my prosthetic legs, ran back to the bathroom and tried to kick the toilet door open. I think I must then have turned on the lights. I went back into the bedroom and grabbed my cricket bat to bash open the toilet door. A panel or panels broke off and I found the key on the floor and unlocked and opened the door. Reeva was slumped over but alive.

I battled to get her out of the toilet and pulled her into the bathroom. I phoned Johan Stander ("Stander") who was involved in the administration of the estate and asked him to phone the ambulance. I phoned Netcare and asked for help. I went downstairs to open the front door. I returned to the bathroom and picked Reeva up as I had been told not to wait for the paramedics, but to take her to hospital. I carried her downstairs in order to take her to the hospital. On my way down Stander arrived. A doctor who lives in the complex also arrived. Downstairs, I tried to render the assistance to Reeva that I could, but she died in my arms.

I am absolutely mortified by the events and the devastating loss of my beloved Reeva. With the benefit of hindsight I believe that Reeva went to the toilet when I went out on the balcony to bring the fan in. I cannot bear to think of the suffering I have caused her and her family, knowing how much she was loved. I also know that the events of that tragic night were as I have described them and that in due course I have no doubt the police and expert investigators will bear this out.

 

[sorrell skye]

Sigh. I am afraid we are going to hear that a full, physical and photographically documentated examination of OP did not take place. Any scratches/wounds etc are long gone, or will be put down to sport injuries.....

Von testified that after OP was arrested, he was taken to the police station, and then transported to the hospital for a medical exam.

I hope a thorough exam was done - with photos!

But, the way this case is unfolding, I won't be surprised if it wasn't.

 

[sorrell skye]

BBM - It's not been established I don't think, but she'd stayed over the night before too, so make of that what you will. I think Botha said that since Reeva had slept over before, OP would have been used to any noises she made (making the 'intruder' story somewhat less than credible).

This reminds me of something Von testified to.

He said that when he entered the 2nd spare bedroom, he saw signs that someone had been staying in there - a toothbrush/toothpaste, other non-specific signs (he called it visibility) that someone had been using that en suite bedroom.

 

[FrancesB]

My point was that Senior Commanders should never be photographed seen touching evidence with bare heads under any circumstances.The forensic team must have taken hours to do their job, and retesting of evidence is always a distinct possibility in high profile murder investigations.

You may well be right, I don't know when the photo was taken, what tests had been done before he touched it, but he clearly understands procedure, he was angered by the forensic guy touching the gun without gloves and told him to put his gloves on, which indicates Van Rensburg has correct procedure in mind. He was at the house for on Feb 14, 15, 16 and 17th.

The door was placed in a body bag and stored in Van Rensburg's office, which he stated he kept locked at all times. On feb 18 when police photographers arrived to take photos of the door, Van Rensburg refused permission for them to take the door out of the bag, insisting that only forensics were allowed to remove it from bag. Van Rensburg also stated that if people wanted faxes (the fax machine was in his locked office), that he did the faxes for them, seems like he protected that door like a Rottweiler to me. He appears very conscientious.

Had he allowed the photographers to take the door out of the bag, before forensics saw it, he would have been accused of stupidity. Had he left the door in a general, accessible corridor in the police station, ditto. Had he lost the keys, or failed to get receipt for their return, ditto. Had he stood and watched the forensic guy handle the gun gloveless, and said nothing, ditto. But he didn't, he seemed aware and protective of the crime scene and evidence.

There comes a point when the police considered that they had finished documenting events and evidence, they couldn't wrap every item in bags and keep the house sealed indefinitely.

On Feb 17 the keys to the house were handed over to Stander by Van Rensburg personally, and from what I remember, Van Rensburg ensured that he got a receipt for the keys.

 

[james83]

Well, shorts and vest/tank seem to be worn by German women for bed a lot (going by what I see in the stores). I still find it a little odd that Reeva was wearing the same colour tank she arrived at the house in though. Someone suggested she may have showered and changed before arriving......

I still find it a little odd she may have gone to bed in a top she wore in the day, especially as she brought an overnight bag with, I presume, overnight clothing.

To be honest if true i find it very very odd that a woman in a fairly new relationship who is also a model would have spent the whole day in temperatures that reached 34 degrees, did some yoga and then went to bed in those same clothes.

 

[MoonFlwr]

I an still reading up on all the details of this case, so I have huge missing parts in my knowledge of the facts.

What I can attest to, however, is the utter fear one can feel, living in Pretoria or other places in S Africa and hearing noises in your house!
(I lived just down the road from that gated community for years.)

It is primeval fear...(because of the incomprehensible violence that one reads about in the news on a very regular basis).

(Grabbing a gun was my mother's first reaction when that happened to us one night, for example.)
The lawyers and judges, at least have that context, living there, because, I don't know how (natural) it may sound to people who have not lived there, to immediately grab a gun and behave frantically - being petrified.

 

[Interested Bystander]

BBM - It's not been established I don't think, but she'd stayed over the night before too, so make of that what you will. I think Botha said that since Reeva had slept over before, OP would have been used to any noises she made (making the 'intruder' story somewhat less than credible).

Reeva had stayed at OP's the previous two nights and Baba said he knew her.

 

[steveml]

OMG ~ I can hear him now "But that cannot be" x 5 :smile:

Let me put it to you like this...

If two prosecution witness statements are similar, Roux will suggest collusion, yet if they're different he'll suggest that one or the other must be lying. He seems to want to have his cake and eat it.

 

[Feynman]

Thank you. I had quite forgotten.

The way I remember it is: He was sleeping on Reeva's side*, which was the left side. So it was left-shoulder down as he faces her, therefore it's right shoulder up, which makes sense if the right shoulder hurts*.

*allegedly

 

[Really?]

I was wondering if he had taken notes. So Von claims he did, but he destroyed them. Hmmmm... I wonder if he really did take notes. Since he claims he destroyed them, there's no way to verify if he did, in fact, take notes, unless someone whose word can be trusted observed him taking these notes.



I'll assume for a minute that Von took notes as he walked through the crime scene (I'm skeptical, but I'll suspend my skepticism for a moment).

This was a very high profile case from the beginning. Now it's a very high profile murder trial involving SA's national sports hero the Blade Runner.

Surely Von was aware that he'd be called to testify, regardless of whether or not he was still on the police force. I doubt this is the first case in which he's provided testimony. I also doubt this is the first time a defense attorney has asked about his investigative notes during trial. If so, he must have anticipated that the matter of his notes would come up during this trial - the trial that has been dubbed by the media as SA's 'trial of the century'.

Based on the above, I find it curious that he claims to have destroyed his notes.

maybe......now this is just a guess.......maybe he wrote out a report including ALL that were in his notes ......so....therefor originals not needed....?

 

[Really?]

What Roux is doing is par for the course.

Will Nel get the chance to question Pistorius?

I imagine if he is on the stand.......Nel(s)..??..... will get to put it to him.....and I mean good fashion.

 

[sorrell skye]

I never killed a loved one, so I don't know 'the norm' but I find it shocking that when police arrived OP was pacing the kitchen while Reeva's body lay unattended, covered in garbage bags, at the bottom of the stairs.

I have heard of loved ones simply refusing to let their obviously dead loved one go, and being ferocious in looking after them and protecting them, even though they no longer need it. Had Reeva's family been there, I cannot imagine them leaving her side until she was taken away, or they were.

I agree.

I think OP would have everyone believe that his & Reeva's relationship was much more serious than it actually was. I mean - they'd only been dating for a few months. How serious could it have possibly been? I wonder if he perceived the relationship as more serious than Reeva did and this was a point of conflict between them? If not, I think his claims about the seriousness of their relationship are designed for persuasion: he'd never purposely kill someone he was deeply in love with.

Then there's the matter of his sister requesting to take one of the watches. I'm assuming she didn't just come up with this request on her own - OP must have asked her to go fetch it.

He had just killed the woman he claimed was "the love of his life". WTH was so important about a watch, of all things, at such a horrendous time???

 

[Really?]

I can understand his sister Aimee collecting clothes for Pistorius, as presumably he would need these to wear a short while later. The request for a watch is something I find hard to get my head around. With all the blood and carnage throughout the house, and having just shot my girlfriend, I'm not sure my thoughts would be so rational as to make sure I had a watch. This is something which you would normally expect someone to request hours later, after having been taken into custody and issuing a statement etc.

Something tells me the watch/watches may have a bigger part to play at some stage in the proceedings.

Thank you, to you Sleuthers, who are working so hard. I can only comment on the hair I am not up to speed on other events.

OP was in a boating accident with severe head and facial injuries, when he fell out of the boat he was driving. Many times when there is a scalp injury the hair grows back white.

Just another thought about it.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2009/feb/22/oscar-pistorius-recovers-from-boating-accident

:wagon: :greetings: