Trial Discussion Thread #6 - 14.03.13-14, Day 9-10

[jilly]

Snipped by me from zwiebel's post


That reminds me; in the pathologist's statement, he said that Reeva arrived naked at his facilities and her clothes were in a bag. Does anyone know if that's normal protocol? I always thought victims of crime - with their clothing and even things around them - were put into a body bag that isn't opened until the coroner/pathologist conducts the autopsy, so fibre/dna or even bullets aren't lost?

Had Reeva already been examined by a coroner before the pathologist and I've missed it, and that's why she was undressed?

Great question!!! I have no idea, and didn't even know she arrived without clothes. I hope someone see's this that can answer this!

BTW zwiebel , thank you so much for all the trial updates! They have been my eyes and ears through out this trial and you have been extremely appreciated!

Key words, imo.

To my knowledge, if she was pronounced dead at the scene she would have been put in a body bag with her clothes on and transported to the morgue. What their procedure in SA is unknown to me. It sounds like she went to a coroner from the morgue and had her clothes removed and then sent to the pathologist.

 

[canny]

Yes canny, the gun was moved by an un gloved forensic guy, but Van Rensburg saw it happen and voiced his anger and made the forensic man put his gloves on. Hardly Van Rensburg's fault. He was angry about it, rightfully, and to me that indicates that Van Rensburg has a good idea of procedure. Botha, on the other hand, could be a liability in Pistorius's favor, so I hope Van Rensburg was the first cop in attendance.

If Botha messes this case up beyond possibility of accidental mistakes, if his mistakes are consistently detrimental to this case, then he needs to be investigated as to whether his mistakes were intentional.

Traces of Gunshot residue found on the fans, curtains blinds should expose OP’s lies conclusively, however when forensic technicians and senior Police Commanders are handling critical evidence items without gloves, the accusation by the defence of cross contamination is a distinct possibility .Van Rensburg is seen in the bedroom pic without gloves with the fan plug in his hand.

 

[canny]

Because of course the defense can find in one lunch hour what a man with 25 years of experience in forensics has missed...!

Credit should go to the top secret brain food their Master Chef Roux provides them for lunch. Due respect should be given only when deserved.

 

[Feynman]

Yep, Roux did say that and that there was one on the previous day. I am assuming he has photos to prove this but more than a bit odd that there is no sign of it on his left shoulder, though VonR did say he could see something. I have assumed the red on his upper left arm is blood but maybe it is not. However I would not refer to that as his shoulder.

It's OP's RIGHT shoulder that was in pain (allegedly).

 

[zwiebel]

Credit should go to the top secret brain food their Master Chef Roux provides them for lunch. Due respect should be given only when deserved.

Sorry canny but you're wrong. Credit is always due to a nice, strong cup of tea drunk at regular intervals.

 

[canny]

When he does his scream in court maybe he can have Herschelle Gibbs hit him in his cricket box with the cricket bat, that will help him lol

What if Roux were to confess that his client swings both ways giving him the ability to sound like a M & F at will.Defense lawyers have to use innovative methods to save their clients in extreme circumstances.

 

[zwiebel]

One other thing that alarmed me was when the Col explained that OP was left pacing in the kitchen, and then moved to the garage. At the time, investigators didn't know for sure where the crime scene was. Had they needed to prove Reeva was killed in the kitchen or garage and carried to the bathroom, they might have been in trouble.

It seems very odd OP wasn't taken to the police station straight away. Man power shortage, I guess?

 

[foxbluff]

I definitely heard him say she arrived without clothes, and his testimony also mentioned how the 'defect' in her shorts he later found was a bullet hole that matched her hip wound. That's the kind of mistake that is avoided if a victim is clothed upon first examination, I think. He also said he found a bullet 'tangled' in her clothes.

BBM#1 - wow... that was sooo misleading, wasn't it?!


BBM#2 - dble wow... yet more new info for me (ty)! Sooo, she wasn't "dressed for bed" or "undressed for bed" (depending on her sleeping habits) when she was killed. And, her shorts were "on" as opposed to being around her ankles as though using the toilet for the usual reasons someone goes to the toilet...

 

[FrancesB]

Traces of Gunshot residue found on the fans, curtains blinds should expose OP’s lies conclusively, however when forensic technicians and senior Police Commanders are handling critical evidence items without gloves, the accusation by the defence of cross contamination is a distinct possibility .Van Rensburg is seen in the bedroom pic without gloves with the fan plug in his hand.

Was the photo of Van Rensburg taken after forensics had been there? Do you have a link to a clear photo of this? (the only one I have seen is so unclear, I'd like to see a clearer one, thanks, if you have a link to one). Van Rensburg was at the house Feb 14, 15, 16 and 17th, it would have helped a lot if the camera imprinted date/time on each photo.

I wish there was a simple transcript of the exact words of those in court, rather than tweets which don't give a full, unadulterated, straightforward transcript.

 

[zwiebel]

BBM#1 - wow... that was sooo misleading, wasn't it?!


BBM#2 - dble wow... yet more new info for me (ty)! Sooo, she wasn't "dressed for bed" or "undressed for bed" (depending on her sleeping habits) when she was killed. And, her shorts were "on" as opposed to being around her ankles as though using the toilet for the usual reasons someone goes to the toilet...

Well, shorts and vest/tank seem to be worn by German women for bed a lot (going by what I see in the stores). I still find it a little odd that Reeva was wearing the same colour tank she arrived at the house in though. Someone suggested she may have showered and changed before arriving......

I still find it a little odd she may have gone to bed in a top she wore in the day, especially as she brought an overnight bag with, I presume, overnight clothing.

 

[Danta]

Thank you, to you Sleuthers, who are working so hard. I can only comment on the hair I am not up to speed on other events.

OP was in a boating accident with severe head and facial injuries, when he fell out of the boat he was driving. Many times when there is a scalp injury the hair grows back white.

Just another thought about it.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2009/feb/22/oscar-pistorius-recovers-from-boating-accident

 

[FrancesB]

Schoombie Van Rensburg was Lt. Col, is that higher than Botha's rank? Does anyone know?

 

[canny]

My question why didn't she (with permission) remove all of the expensive watches?

The whole home was a crime scene that had to be secured therefore she, her brother,and the Standers had no business roaming about in his home comforting him, except for his attorney they were are trespassers who could contaminate the crime scene.The police failed in getting their fundamental principles of crime scene investigation right, undoubtedly they were overawed by his celebrity status.They now have to bear this ignominy in court with the whole world watching as Roux falsely brands them as low life criminals. In such a horrific atmosphere prevailing in his home the person who took the first watch can only be the prime suspect for the other two missing watches, and that person happens to be his beloved sister. Two senior Police Commanders careers ended for mishandling evidence in this case, it was beyond comprehension that any junior police official would be so brazen as to steal expensive valuables from the home of the superstar of the country and get away with it.

 

[canny]

Schoombie Van Rensburg was Lt. Col, is that higher than Botha's rank? Does anyone know?

No, Botha was his boss IMO because he gave the order to arrest OP in the garage and they both lost their jobs.

 

[foxbluff]

Well, shorts and vest/tank seem to be worn by German women for bed a lot (going by what I see in the stores). I still find it a little odd that Reeva was wearing the same colour tank she arrived at the house in though. Someone suggested she may have showered and changed before arriving......

I still find it a little odd she may have gone to bed in a top she wore in the day, especially as she brought an overnight bag with, I presume, overnight clothing.

BBM - Ohhh, that's not what I wanted to hear! lol

 

[FrancesB]

No, Botha was his boss.

Is an investigating officer (Botha) higher than a Lt. Col?

 

[FrancesB]

No, Botha was his boss IMO because he gave the order to arrest OP in the garage and they both lost their jobs.

It has been reported a lot that Botha gave the order to arrest, but Van Rensburg stated that when he arrived at the scene, Pistorius was in the kitchen, and that he (Van Rensburg) warned Pistorius that he was a suspect, but that he (Van Rensburg) did not immediately place Pistorius under arrest because he wanted more info. He got that info shortly thereafter and went down to the kitchen, placed Pistorius under arrest and put Pistorius in the garage, with a guard on the door. I thought I heard Van Rensburg state today in court that Botha didn't arrive until Pistorius had been placed in the garage.

 

[zwiebel]

It has been reported a lot that Botha gave the order to arrest, but Van Rensburg stated that when he arrived at the scene, Pistorius was in the kitchen, and that he (Van Rensburg) warned Pistorius that he was a suspect, but that he (Van Rensburg) did not immediately place Pistorius under arrest because he wanted more info. He got that info shortly thereafter and went down to the kitchen, placed Pistorius under arrest and put Pistorius in the garage, with a guard on the door. I thought I heard Van Rensburg state today in court that Botha didn't arrive until Pistorius had been placed in the garage.

I think that was what he tried to say, but Roux managed to muddy up the timeline (for me). Something about Botha being with him upstairs with OP waiting in the kitchen, but then Botha supposedly not arriving until OP was in the garage? I found it all very confusing - hope the judge is better at keeping track than me!

 

[FrancesB]

I've just found order of hierarchy of police in SA, and unless Botha was a Col, then Van Rensburg is highest. I don't recall Botha being Col Botha, but Investigating Officer Botha. Van Rensburg was Lieutenant Colonel, therefore I believe Van Rensburg is higher.

 

[lisasalinger]

I wonder if Nel will call any of the forensics laboratory people to the stand who can explain their chain of custody process. On the surface, their process seems to be lacking greatly. I am truly shocked at how nonchalant it appears to be handled. But maybe this is not unusual for other countries, I really don't know.

In the US, it's meticulous. Everything is packaged with numbers and names, and they typically call forensics people to the stand to set up how they received and processed the items before the other experts and investigators take the stand to discuss the findings.

Nel obviously knows that there were issues with how the door was handled, Oscar's bloody socks are missing, the rubber part of the cricket bat was not in court, etc.

For the legal minded people on this board... is it in the State's interest to bring in the lab people to explain what happened or better to let it go and focus on other details?

Obviously Roux won't let it go, as he shouldn't, but how should the State handle this? Just curious about your thoughts.