Trial Discussion weekend Thread #24

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Also, I have been listening to quite a few interviews with defense lawyers, and reading articles that they have written on this trial so far.

Every single interview and article that I have read confirms that Nel's cross examining is brutally effective, that he is picking up on major inconsistencies that have an important legal impact on the case, that OP is proving himself to be an unreliable witness and is his own worst enemy on the stand.

Those who think that Nel is doing a poor job or that OP's story is making sense might do well to remember this and perhaps re-examine your own perceptions... given that NONE of the defense lawyers have taken this stance, and they are qualified and experienced in what happens in court.
 
<snipped>

"Fight or Flight" Human (an other animal) autonomic reflex reaction to perceived threat.

Imo, I would say it wasn't OP's reflex by nature, just look at the mental confusion he seems to be portraying now that he let his "sportsman instinct" carry the day. Compare it if you will to all those young soldiers that played war games growing up thinking they're all that and then someone plunks them in the middle of a real war zone and they come home with PTSD.

I think it was a learned response. Just look at how his Mom trained him to live and his father's attitude about not just guns but life in SA. Shoot first and ask questions later... it's not an uncommon attitude in most parts of the world where people consider arming themselves as a right(unfortunately many don't understand that even "freedom" comes with responsibility) and in OP's case, the celebrity status he gained using the training from his Mother for inspiration, just added up to disaster when coupled with a likely head injury from his own actions and irresponsible behaviour.
 
Bedroom lights off and the balcony light was on. Nel presented that and Oscar agreed.

The prosecution has said that OP and Reeva were arguing. Does that mean they were arguing in the dark and Reeva ran down the hall towards the bathroom in the dark? Doesn't that seem a bit odd?
 
It is documented in evidence. Nel hasn't gotten to this portion of the story in Oscar's cross-examination yet.

Thanks, now that I've refreshed my memory with those pics, that shot was definitely going into the bedroom. Lends credence to my own theory of the events that night...:)
 
I think the other thing is that he has been advised by his counsel and Nel himself not to argue and so he is doing his utmost not to appear combative. Frankly, myself, I feel that this is one of hte inherent flaws of the justice system. Why should one side (the prosecuion) be allowed to argue during cross examinations, and the other be required not to counter those arguments. Where is the justice in that? At the very least, they should be allowed to explain their actions for how otherwise would we be able to understand them. I felt that Nel abused his right to adduce arguments and make acerbic comments that were humiliation to the defendant and for this reason no doubt he has been reported to the SAHRC.
 
When OP was asked why he advanced towards the danger and not exit through the bedroom door to the rest of the house, his answer was:

"It's my personality not to run away."

I believe he is now claiming that he armed himself and went to where he perceived hearing the intruder enter so as to put himself between the threat and Reeva, to protect her.

So we can add Reeva to the list of people or circumstances who made him to it. If he hadn't been trying to protect her, he wouldn't have killed her.

Of course that answer directly contradicts his claim to have been in great fear at the time.

Of all the things he could hsve done if he really heard a possible noise from an intruder, the action he did take is the only one that someone would take if they felt NO fear or panic.

In attorney-speak "Case closed next."
 
The prosecution has said that OP and Reeva were arguing. Does that mean they were arguing in the dark and Reeva ran down the hall towards the bathroom in the dark? Doesn't that seem a bit odd?

No, it just means that was how the room was found when the police arrived.
 
I didn't say he deserved kindness. I said he's used to receiving it. I was offering a viewpoint about his mindset.



In a country where armed intrusion (not just breaking an entering) are common with the same kinds of weapons, and most adults own and carry guns and use them for self-defensive purposes. Context is everything.




I said nothing about that, but thank you for giving this some thought.

My apologies. You mentioned that Nel had a badgering tone so that is how I interpreted your post, that is why I commented on the personalities of lawyers in court.
 
I think the other thing is that he has been advised by his counsel and Nel himself not to argue and so he is doing his utmost not to appear combative. Frankly, myself, I feel that this is one of hte inherent flaws of the justice system. Why should one side (the prosecuion) be allowed to argue during cross examinations, and the other be required not to counter those arguments. Where is the justice in that? At the very least, they should be allowed to explain their actions for how otherwise would we be able to understand them. I felt that Nel abused his right to adduce arguments and make acerbic comments that were humiliation to the defendant and for this reason no doubt he has been reported to the SAHRC.

The state only have a couple of statements which disclose OP's actions on that night so why shouldn't they be allowed to challenge him? A woman died because of OP and he's being nothing but incredibly evasive. There are loads of questions that could (and should) have been answered with simple yes or no answers but it's OP himself whose chosen to skirt around them to answer what he thinks the evidence shows. If he's truly innocent, he should be thankful he's getting the grilling he is to prove that Reeva gets the justice she deserves.
 
Quotes from an interview with defense lawyer Ulrich Roux, published in the Sunday Times this morning:

How did Oscar fare under cross examination?

He has not fared well. He has come across as being an evasive witness and not giving straightforward answers to very direct questions. Most detrimental, however, is the fact that his version has changed on numerous occasions when tested by Gerrie Nel. this makes it near impossible for the court to accept his version. He has been very selective as to what he remembers and what he does not. This does not bode well for his credibility as a witness and the court will make a negative inference as to his recollection of exactly what happened on that evening. He has also become agitated with Nel, losing his temper somewhat and falling into the traps Nel has set for him. The fact he is blaming his legal representatives, the South African police, as well as his friends for lying all ocmes across in a negative light and indicates he is not prepared to take responsibility for any of his actions.

What did you make of Gerrie Nel's aggressive questioning?

Nel's style is to rattle witnesses, unsettle them emotionally, and in so doing get them to make mistakes. When Pistorius has been emotional and upset, his chain of thoughts and judgmenthas definitely become clouded and that is when Nel has pounced on him. The main function of cross-examination, however, is to test whether a witness's version is the truth and whether it is reasonably and possibly true. Nel must be careful his aggression does not deter from this fact and take away the effect that the contradictions actually have. He has managed to force Pistorius into making numerous concessions, which will be very difficult to recover from. He must continue to focus on these concessions and contradictions for the remainder of Pistorius's cross-examination.

What are the key concessions Pistorius has made?

Pistorius testified he has been a victim of crime his entire life and named a number of occasions, such as the apparent gunshot fired at him on the highway and the apparent assault on him in a public place, yet he has never laid any charges at a police station. He conceded this. He initially testified he could not remember firing the four shots, but later conceded the fact that he clearly remembers he did not fire a double tap. This is a big contradiction and places much doubt over the accuracy of his recollection of how events unfolded on that evening. Further concessions were regarding the apparent contamination of the crime scene and how unlikely it is that the police would indeed move items around without knowing what Pistorius's version is, the length of the fan's power cord, the fact that he did not repair the broken windo in his house immediately, that there was no ladder outside his house, the alarm was activated, and so on. He conceded to the ammunition charge as well as to the fact that it was negligent of both him and Darren Fresco to handle the firearm in the way that they did at Tasha's. The three minor charges are posing a big problem for Pistorius because of the character evidence that was introduced when evidence was heard on the charges. I cannot see him escaping a conviction on any of these charges. His testimony on the ammunition and Tasha's charges have been tantamount to a confession, in my opinion. Just flatly denying that he fired a shot out of hte car's sunroof, after two witnesses have testified that he did, leaves much to be desired.
 
Also, I have been listening to quite a few interviews with defense lawyers, and reading articles that they have written on this trial so far.

Every single interview and article that I have read confirms that Nel's cross examining is brutally effective, that he is picking up on major inconsistencies that have an important legal impact on the case, that OP is proving himself to be an unreliable witness and is his own worst enemy on the stand.

Those who think that Nel is doing a poor job or that OP's story is making sense might do well to remember this and perhaps re-examine your own perceptions... given that NONE of the defense lawyers have taken this stance, and they are qualified and experienced in what happens in court.


I beg to differ. I feel that Nel is a poor prosecutor who has nothing but theories to butttess his case and very little or no evidence. His only real asset is that he is a mental bully and he uses this to cover up his poor style, and unfortunately these tactics are misguidedly applauded in the legal system. It's easy for Nel, since he has no prison sentence staring him in the face, but he is abusing OP's disavantaged position by mocking, cajoling, and otherwise humiliating him for all the world to see, and foolish people applaud that.
 
Quotes from an interview with defense lawyer Ulrich Roux, published in the Sunday Times this morning:

How did Oscar fare under cross examination?

He has not fared well. He has come across as being an evasive witness and not giving straightforward answers to very direct questions. Most detrimental, however, is the fact that his version has changed on numerous occasions when tested by Gerrie Nel. this makes it near impossible for the court to accept his version. He has been very selective as to what he remembers and what he does not. This does not bode well for his credibility as a witness and the court will make a negative inference as to his recollection of exactly what happened on that evening. He has also become agitated with Nel, losing his temper somewhat and falling into the traps Nel has set for him. The fact he is blaming his legal representatives, the South African police, as well as his friends for lying all ocmes across in a negative light and indicates he is not prepared to take responsibility for any of his actions.

What did you make of Gerrie Nel's aggressive questioning?

Nel's style is to rattle witnesses, unsettle them emotionally, and in so doing get them to make mistakes. When Pistorius has been emotional and upset, his chain of thoughts and judgmenthas definitely become clouded and that is when Nel has pounced on him. The main function of cross-examination, however, is to test whether a witness's version is the truth and whether it is reasonably and possibly true. Nel must be careful his aggression does not deter from this fact and take away the effect that the contradictions actually have. He has managed to force Pistorius into making numerous concessions, which will be very difficult to recover from. He must continue to focus on these concessions and contradictions for the remainder of Pistorius's cross-examination.

What are the key concessions Pistorius has made?

Pistorius testified he has been a victim of crime his entire life and named a number of occasions, such as the apparent gunshot fired at him on the highway and the apparent assault on him in a public place, yet he has never laid any charges at a police station. He conceded this. He initially testified he could not remember firing the four shots, but later conceded the fact that he clearly remembers he did not fire a double tap. This is a big contradiction and places much doubt over the accuracy of his recollection of how events unfolded on that evening. Further concessions were regarding the apparent contamination of the crime scene and how unlikely it is that the police would indeed move items around without knowing what Pistorius's version is, the length of the fan's power cord, the fact that he did not repair the broken windo in his house immediately, that there was no ladder outside his house, the alarm was activated, and so on. He conceded to the ammunition charge as well as to the fact that it was negligent of both him and Darren Fresco to handle the firearm in the way that they did at Tasha's. The three minor charges are posing a big problem for Pistorius because of the character evidence that was introduced when evidence was heard on the charges. I cannot see him escaping a conviction on any of these charges. His testimony on the ammunition and Tasha's charges have been tantamount to a confession, in my opinion. Just flatly denying that he fired a shot out of hte car's sunroof, after two witnesses have testified that he did, leaves much to be desired.
 
James, you can feel what you like. The truth is that Nel is a top prosecutor who has won international awards for his previous prosecutions and he is held in extremely high regard. Aggressiveness forms part of his style, as does sarcasm, used to highlight inconsistencies in OP's story. As other posters have said, this is how the law works, this is the harsh reality of what the inside of a courtroom is really like, and you cannot accuse Nel of bullying when his job is to get the truth out of a witness who is prepared to lie, and who has been extensively coached on his "story" by his defense team.
 
If you have a strong case, you don't need to continually humiliate someone and call them a liar etc. Your facts will speak for themselves.
 
They did seem to be quite different.

Anyone know why Reeva didn't use her law degree?

I can't find the article right now but iirc correctly, she believed in fate and apparently the day she graduated she received offers for modelling and chose that path, with plans to use her law degree in the future, presumably after her modelling days were done.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2278514/Reeva-Steenkamp-Oscar-Pistorius-law-graduate-girlfriend-explode-media-says-agent.html
She graduated with a law degree, but made a dynamic career change after being scouted and named the first face of cosmetics giant Avon South Africa.

She became a keen horse rider but broke her back in an horrific fall six years ago, suffering injuries so severe that she had to learn to walk again.

Her rehabilitation may have brought her into Pistorius's path, and friends said she had admired his single-minded determination to race.
 
James, you can feel what you like. The truth is that Nel is a top prosecutor who has won international awards for his previous prosecutions and he is held in extremely high regard. Aggressiveness forms part of his style, as does sarcasm, used to highlight inconsistencies in OP's story. As other posters have said, this is how the law works, this is the harsh reality of what the inside of a courtroom is really like, and you cannot accuse Nel of bullying when his job is to get the truth out of a witness who is prepared to lie, and who has been extensively coached on his "story" by his defense team.

Well you have your opinion, and I have mine. As I see it, he doesn't adduce cogent arguments. He tries to score cheap points and mostly badgers, bullies and cajoles. I can't be the only one seeing it, because he has been reported to the SAHRC.
 
What penalties does OP face if he is found guilty of

1. Shooting the gun out of the sunroof of the car?

2. Shooting the gun in the restaurant?

3. Having illegal ammo?

Thank you
 
Don't worry... Nel was wrongfully arrested while prosecuting the Selebi case! All in a day's work for a prosecutor - it is not an easy job. Nel's integrity is widely respected. The SAHRC will investigate of course, as they have been asked to, but I'm confident they will find nothing wrong.

Far from scoring cheap points, Nel has won major concessions from OP and pointed out very significant inconsistencies. If OP wanted to be treated with kid gloves, his best bet would have been not to fire his gun in anger! Probably, Nel is deliberately pressuring him partly because he knows OP has a short fuse and if angry, he will find it less easy to stick to the lines he has learned.
 
Do we know anything abt the other police officer taking photos at the same time with Van Staden who the DT accused for great disturbance to the images ? Van Staden insisted that he took the before and after pictures of a few items (towels, duvet no mention of fans ) and he insisted that he worked alone.
That is very interesting imo and the defence case depends on that a lot..
A family friend police officer that OP mentioned came to help him and he was also near him sitting somewhere in the car while leaving the house ( a lot of details given and what was his signifcance in his testimony ?
I wonder if someone deliberately moved a few items and took their photos after van staden to discredit the police evidence ..

Imo, it's a friends in high places scenario. Should the judge see fit to throw the book at OP, there's little doubt in my mind that an appeal will be filed immediately claiming some kind of psychological malfunction/impairment and will probably get him off with house arrest or some such carp.
 
If you have a strong case, you don't need to continually humiliate someone and call them a liar etc. Your facts will speak for themselves.

The case was deemed by the judge to have enough facts to try the case. There won't always be cases where forensics can support a case and there won't always be cases where witnesses can support a case. This has both and both sides have rights to challenge and are vigorously doing so.
 
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