trial thread: 04/03/2012

[Macright]

In this case, I have no doubt now that he crushed her little body and broke her ribs when he was on top of her raping her.

many little children have been raped and lived without the breaking of any ribs and I am sure many of them have tried to fight off the offender..JMO is that she was kicked and stomped on as we heard in court todayfrom a pro...JMO I know it will not be accepted by some but I wonder if now that charge will be dropped because there is no evidence to back it up..unless there is more evidence to come...:twocents:

 

[maxfactor]

I agree totally and there are no excuses for his behaviour following the crime.

None whatsoever............nothing he says can excuse it.

But he isn't on trial for his conduct afterwards, unless it is relative to the charges against him.

What about the fact that this poor child may have been alive when he helped to bury her in a pile of rocks? He was alone with Tori while TLM was in the Home Depot. That would have been his perfect chance to get help. But no, he drove closer to pick her up and popped the trunk for her and waited for her to get in and then he drove off down the highway..

 

[Hello_Kitty]

Should you choose to believe TLM's "testimony" then according to her graphic testimony about the two of them in the back seat of that little car, that is not how the rape occurred. I am fairly certain that the coroner that testified today was of the opinion that the broken ribs were the result of considerable force - i.e. kicking. It is unreasonable to therefore assume that the broken ribs were the result of the weight of his body on top of her when this is not what the evidence supports.

It is unlikely, in my opinion, that either of the broken ribs and fractured face were inflicted on TS by MR, but rather by the confessed and convicted murderess who is evidently evil enough to do such things in her supposed rage.

There is nothing in the evidence presented today to support the Crown's charges of sexual assault.

JMO

Also I believe that TLM testified that the rape occured while Tori was sitting in his lap, so he wasn't on top of her.

 

[ChaChaCha]

[/B]
Opinion and speculation only:

I also †hink †his likely. I wonder too if Tori struggled and sounded the horn when she was in the front sea†; trying to call for help perhaps triggering violence from MTR and then the move to the back seat.

If TLM's testimony is true then Tori would not have seen the hammer coming at her because garbage bags were placed over her head prior to the hammer blows. Therefore the automatic impulse to raise hands over head for protection would not have occurred. But even if that was the case, once she was thrown on the ground by MTR (as alleged), would she not have tried to move away ... crawl away? I believe her parents said she was a fighter. Maybe she'd already sustained an injury before being thrown on the ground and was consequently unable to move.

None of us will sleep well tonight thinking of Tori's final hours. The damage done to her hits a level of sadistic cruelty that's incomprensible, unfathomable. There will be no relief for Tori's family. How terrible for them.

Thank you to all the people who kept this thread up to date today. The words must have been difficult to type at times.

The coroner did not note any defensive wounds on poor little Tori's hands or arms ... I sincerely hope that she was unconscious by the time that murderous witch picked up her hammer.

I am also of the opinion that TLM deliberately used the claw end of the hammer (unbelievable!) since at one time she noted of MR when he was supposedly the one who murdered that baby that "he knew what he was doing". Yes, IMO she intended to inflict pain and suffering and bloodshed.

 

[Flowercb]

The Crown charged MR with sexual assault, and now their own witness testifies there is no evidence of a sexual assault taking place?

That can't be good for the Crown.

She was found without underwear or pants/skirt. No clothing on her lower half. That speaks to sexual assault. :moo:

 

[maxfactor]

Also I believe that TLM testified that the rape occured while Tori was sitting in his lap, so he wasn't on top of her.

That's true she did, IMO he could have easily crushed her ribs just trying to hold on to her especially if she was facing away from him.

 

[matou]

The Crown charged MR with sexual assault, and now their own witness testifies there is no evidence of a sexual assault taking place?

That can't be good for the Crown.

I think the Chief pathologist only examines the body and it's tissues. I think the garbage bags were given to different specialists to examine. JMO

 

[ChaChaCha]

She was found without underwear or pants/skirt. No clothing on her lower half. That speaks to sexual assault. :moo:

The defense may suggest that the scene was staged by TLM to look like a sexual assault and therefore deflect suspicion away from herself as a female ...

But really, who is there left to question about a possible rape? The coroner today indicated that the scope of his autopsy could not prove that a sexual assault had occurred. No one else is more qualified than him to speak to the matter.

I think that part is a wrap, at least as far as the autopsy goes. There may be more forensic evidence forthcoming though from the car.

To my thinking, without evidence to substantiate the Crown's allegations that MR abducted TS for nefarious purposes, the Crown cannot put forth his motive - he has NO PRIORS - so they can't go to past bad acts like they did with TLM, who was just full of anger and rage.

JMO

 

[Hello_Kitty]

The defense may suggest that the scene was staged by TLM to look like a sexual assault and therefore deflect suspicion away from herself as a female ...

But really, who is there left to question about a possible rape? The coroner today indicated that the scope of his autopsy could not prove that a sexual assault had occurred. No one else is more qualified than him to speak to the matter.

I think that part is a wrap, at least as far as the autopsy goes. There may be more forensic evidence forthcoming though from the car.

To my thinking, without evidence to substantiate the Crown's allegations that MR abducted TS for nefarious purposes, the Crown cannot put forth his motive - he has NO PRIORS - so they can't go to past bad acts like they did with TLM, who was just full of anger and rage.

JMO

BBM

Maybe I'm not understanding this correctly, but I don't think that's quite what he said:


AM980.ca‏@AM980_CourtReply

He notes abduction and sexual assault are beyond the scope of medical evidence.

1h AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court
"There's nothing in the medical evidence that would refute that", Pollanen says.

1h AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court
Carnegie putting forward the crown's theory of the crime (sex assault, kicking, hammer blows), asking if his findings match up.

 

[Shasta]

The coroner did not note any defensive wounds on poor little Tori's hands or arms ... I sincerely hope that she was unconscious by the time that murderous witch picked up her hammer.

I am also of the opinion that TLM deliberately used the claw end of the hammer (unbelievable!) since at one time she noted of MR when he was supposedly the one who murdered that baby that "he knew what he was doing". Yes, IMO she intended to inflict pain and suffering and bloodshed.

With respect, I didn't indicate Tori's hands were damaged. I'm referring to an earlier post in which the poster wondered why Tori's alleged position on the ground was not more defensive with arms above head to protect from hammer blow.

If you re-read my post you will note I state it's speculation--an attempt to understand how the crime occurred. There is much in this case that is yet to be explained.

Also, I've never cared which of these two monsters was more evil. I'm more interested in how they conspired together to torture and murder an eight-year-old girl.

 

[swedie]

Like TLM said she was being kicked and at the side of the car. Friggin animals these people, kicked her so hard he lacerated her liver, I can't say anymore about this without getting kicked off this site. Unbelievable, let the jury put out the real garbage. SO SAD

As I said before, I could see MR beating Tori in the car out of sight from TLM. This would be the reason why she laid limp and moaning on the ground outside his car. He knew he had done the worst damage and there was no turning back. He then placed the garbage bag over Tori's head knowing he could count on TLM to do the rest. All he would have had to do was hold out the hammer and being in the rage she was in, had no problem accepting that hammer. I would not be surprised if MR assisted with the kicking and stomping.

It's possible IMHO TLM took the fall for MR's sickening behaviour because as she stated "he had more going for him and she was just an 18 year old junkie". Could it be in her warped mind, she still feels this way today, is willing to take on that blame...I think it's highly plausible. TLM is thinking there may be some evidence of MR's sexual assault against Tori so that she cannot admit that away. She could be believing MR will only be charged with sexual assault, serve a few years and get off instead of 25 years or more. :moo:

 

[ChaChaCha]

BBM

Maybe I'm not understanding this correctly, but I don't think that's quite what he said:


AM980.ca‏@AM980_CourtReply

He notes abduction and sexual assault are beyond the scope of medical evidence.

1h AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court
"There's nothing in the medical evidence that would refute that", Pollanen says.

1h AM980.ca‏@AM980_Court
Carnegie putting forward the crown's theory of the crime (sex assault, kicking, hammer blows), asking if his findings match up.

Yup ... abduction cannot be proved medically speaking (what an odd question to ask the guy) ... and while there is nothing in the medical evidence to prove or disprove that a sexual assault took place (due to the condition of the remains) I believe he stated that the autopsy did support the kicking and hammer blows. So no evidence of sexual assault was found.

 

[Flowercb]

That's true she did, IMO he could have easily crushed her ribs just trying to hold on to her especially if she was facing away from him.

And there wouldn't have been enough room in the backseat of the car to do it any other way. This is what makes me think TLM is telling the truth.:moo:

 

[KMouse]

Tori was kidnapped and brutalized. What other reason could there possibly be for her not to be wearing any panties or pants?

 

[Flowercb]

Pollanen said Tori Stafford died by blunt impacts to head by a hammer.

Injuries to torso could also have been fatal.

Tori was hit three times with the claw end of the hammer, once with the other end. Also punched, kicked, thrown on the ground.

The amount of force used was "considerable."

Bleeding from the head, inhalation of blood, torso injuries all contributed to Tori's death

What could possibly cause someone to do this to an innocent child!:banghead:

 

[matou]

Tori Stafford's Mother Cries As Jury Views Graphic Autopsy Photos

Tori Stafford's father rushed from the courtroom Tuesday as images were shown of the eight-year-old's barely recognizable remains, clothed only in a hooded Hannah Montana T-shirt emblazoned with sparkles and the words ``a girl can dream.''
The slide show detailing the girl's autopsy was shown in court as part of testimony at the trial of Michael Rafferty.
Tori's mother, Tara McDonald, cried while the photos were on courtroom screens while her father, Rodney Stafford, left the room

http://www.am980.ca/channels/news/local/Story.aspx?ID=1680956

 

[ChaChaCha]

As I said before, I could see MR beating Tori in the car out of sight from TLM. This would be the reason why she laid limp and moaning on the ground outside his car. He knew he had done the worst damage and there was no turning back. He then placed the garbage bag over Tori's head knowing he could count on TLM to do the rest. All he would have had to do was hold out the hammer and being in the rage she was in, had no problem accepting that hammer. I would not be surprised if MR assisted with the kicking and stomping.

Respectfully snipped and bolded for reference


But TLM did not testify that MR beat Tori in any way ... TLM testified that TS was crying and called out to her to make him stop .... no reference at all in all of her testimony about him hitting TS in the face or elsewhere ... if you choose to believe TLM's story of a sexual assault, then you would have to believe that she would have said that MR was physically abusive with TS if that was true.

I do not understand why, with all of the terrible and horrific acts that were inflicted on TS including the taking of her very young life, <modsnip>. I think that what we have heard in the courtroom is enough <modsnip>.

It makes me ill to think about how that child suffered, let alone imagining more. To me it seems disrespectful to the memory of TS, the child, <modsnip>. I am concerned that after the trial is over it will be the exaggerated unsubstantiated stories of abuse that will be remembered when, IMO, it is quite enough to know what the evidence shows so far. This poor innocent child and should not be further sullied by innuendo IMO.

Whew!

 

[KMouse]

I think the Chief pathologist only examines the body and it's tissues. I think the garbage bags were given to different specialists to examine. JMO

That is correct. They look for injuries or disease that has caused a person's death. They do not examine things such as garbage bags for evidence but they would take it into account. Like a PP said, the Caylee Anthony case. Dr. G took into account the duct tape, garbage bags, and laundry bag and how they may have related to the death of Caylee.

I will assume at the time of autopsy that when the garbage bags were removed they were sent to the forensic lab as were the plastic bottle caps.

 

[Hello_Kitty]

That is correct. They look for injuries or disease that has caused a person's death. They do not examine things such as garbage bags for evidence but they would take it into account. Like a PP said, the Caylee Anthony case. Dr. G took into account the duct tape, garbage bags, and laundry bag and how they may have related to the death of Caylee.

I will assume at the time of autopsy that when the garbage bags were removed they were sent to the forensic lab as were the plastic bottle caps.

Could they also examine decomposition fluids to see if it contained seminal fluid that would prove sexual activity?

 

[ChaChaCha]

With respect, I didn't indicate Tori's hands were damaged. I'm referring to an earlier post in which the poster wondered why Tori's alleged position on the ground was not more defensive with arms above head to protect from hammer blow.

If you re-read my post you will note I state it's speculation--an attempt to understand how the crime occurred. There is much in this case that is yet to be explained.

Also, I've never cared which of these two monsters was more evil. I'm more interested in how they conspired together to torture and murder an eight-year-old girl.

Oh no, I totally agree with you Shasta - and in support of that I noted that the Coroner did not mention any defensive wounds on TS which I think he would have had he found any.