TX - 26 dead, 20 injured in church shooting, Sutherland Springs, 5 Nov 2017 #2

[canadiangirl]

23 identified here. I'm amazed at the number of couples that died together....

http://heavy.com/news/2017/11/suthe...-shooting-victims-list-names-photos-pictures/

Sad. He managed to kill grandma as well

White, 71, was the grandmother of the shooter’s wife. Her daughter, the shooter’s mother-in-law, Michelle Shields, was also a member of the church. Her niece shared her last Facebook post, which was about the “spark of life.”

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[canadiangirl]

Survivor’s son: Gunman walked aisle*shooting
http://kdvr.com/2017/11/06/survivors-son-gunman-walked-aisle-shooting/

"David Brown, whose mother is recovering after the Texas church shooting, says the gunman walked up and down the aisle shooting people that were already on the ground."

Shooting people who were already on the ground???

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[canadiangirl]

And this is necessary to protect our borders from refugees? Why? To scare desperate people? I bet the drug dealers laugh at this get up!

The article says they fear being recognized by the drug cartels. I would too. I'd want my family to come home at night without worrying some drug cartel with a vendetta was after him. Jmo

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[canadiangirl]

"It's him. It's him." Him who? Are they saying this dude was crazy enough they were all expecting him to show up and massacre the church members? Why the heck were they there if they thought that?

Well that's creepy

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[MsArk]

Couple who survived gives their account. Horrifying.

”I hear firecrackers popping. Ta-ta-ta," she remembers. Then someone yelled, warning them to take cover. "Everybody started screaming, yelling. Everyone got down, crawling under wherever they could hide," she said. "It was so scary. He was shooting hard."

https://www.ksat.com/news/sutherlan...e=facebook&utm_medium=snd&utm_campaign=ksat12

 

[pamelado2]

"It's him. It's him." Him who? Are they saying this dude was crazy enough they were all expecting him to show up and massacre the church members? Why the heck were they there if they thought that?

The shooter started outside, shooting into the church. That's how the woman being interviewed got shot. In the video she says some thought it was police coming in. It's him was in answer to that, meaning it's the shooter, not police.

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[ab01]

"A former U.S. serviceman who shot 26 worshipers to death during Sunday prayers in Texas was embroiled in a domestic dispute with his in-laws and had sent threatening text messages to his wife’s mother before the massacre, officials said Monday."
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...h-massacre-by-former-u-s-airman-idUSKBN1D510F

******
LE is suggesting the motive was domestic although they haven't said what is the direct connection with the church and DK, other than that's where the family worshipped. I'm getting the impression, might be wrong, that his uncontrollable rage was toward his wife and her family and when he couldn't locate any of them, he unleashed his fury on the church in a horrific yet indirect way, similar to a child seeking inappropriate attention.

As LE hasn't released further information, we don't know how long the couple had been separated, why or how. Had LE been called to intervene throughout his current relationship at any time in the past? I don't think we know that either but it seemed volatile highly considering the conclusion of his first marriage.

My hypothetical question - if LE had been called by anyone reporting DHs irrational behaviour, harassment, threats etc, would've his prior domestic violence conviction appeared on his record, or only the fact that he was Involuntarily Discharged ?

"I'm getting the impression, might be wrong, that his uncontrollable rage was toward his wife and her family and when he couldn't locate any of them, he unleashed his fury on the church in a horrific yet indirect way, similar to a child seeking inappropriate attention. "

The ? I have regarding this statement is. Why then was he firing into the church from the outside upon arrival? I personally believe he thought that the inlaws were inside and wanted to kill them, but he also wanted to inflict as much devistation as possible. If he did realize that the inlaws weren't there, I believe it wasn't until after he had already carried out the attack inside. It's possible he may have been looking for them while inside, and realized he didn't see them. Maybe I'm wrong, but it just seems to me that he was just hell bent on killing. Moo


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[MistyWaters]

And his father is who he called when he knew he was going to die.


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IMO had to have been a.....type call and I can't use the two words here so "throwing it in his face" is the best I can think of as it appears he wanted his father to know immediately what he had done.

But there's still large missing pieces of information to this case and that's what was going on in the preceding days or weeks between DK and those closest to him. The gun didn't accidently shoot all those people, he did. In horrific cases such as this the potential consequences may serve as an awaking to others presently in similar situations. All too often people suffer in silence, just hoping things will get better.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Gunman shot babies at point-blank range
Jim Vertuno, Will Weissert and Paul J. Weber, Associated Press

Sutherland Springs, Texas — The gunman who killed 26 people at a small-town Texas church went aisle to aisle looking for victims and shot crying babies at point-blank range, a couple who survived the attack said.

Rosanne Solis and Joaquin Ramirez were sitting near the entrance to the First Baptist Church on Sunday when they heard what sounded like firecrackers and realized someone was shooting at the tiny wood-frame building.

In an interview with San Antonio television station KSAT, Solis said congregants began screaming and dropped to the floor. She could see bullets flying into the carpet and fellow worshippers falling down, bloodied, after getting hit.

For a moment, the attacked seemed to stop, and worshippers thought that police had arrived to confront the gunman. But then he entered the church and resumed “shooting hard” at helpless families, Solis said.

The gunman checked each aisle for more victims, including babies who cried out amid the noise and smoke, Ramirez said...

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/nation/2017/11/07/church-shooting-texas/107423590/

 

[Tbone144]

"I'm getting the impression, might be wrong, that his uncontrollable rage was toward his wife and her family and when he couldn't locate any of them, he unleashed his fury on the church in a horrific yet indirect way, similar to a child seeking inappropriate attention. "

The ? I have regarding this statement is. Why then was he firing into the church from the outside upon arrival? I personally believe he thought that the inlaws were inside and wanted to kill them, but he also wanted to inflict as much devistation as possible. If he did realize that the inlaws weren't there, I believe it wasn't until after he had already carried out the attack inside. It's possible he may have been looking for them while inside, and realized he didn't see them. Maybe I'm wrong, but it just seems to me that he was just hell bent on killing. Moo


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I think he fired from the outside to provide chaos. If someone was armed inside and he came in shooting, not knowing who was armed would make him a target. By shooting from the outside, you would need to duck and cover because you wouldn’t know who exactly was firing. Then once everyone was hiding and in panic he came in. Just more proof of what a coward he was. IMOO.

I think as to why them, he wanted to inflict maximum pain on his In laws, go after their friends and family. I think he was a petty coward who lashed out at his wife’s family. Leaving them alive but destroying their friends and going after their faith. I will be curious if they release those text messages.

 

[MistyWaters]

"I'm getting the impression, might be wrong, that his uncontrollable rage was toward his wife and her family and when he couldn't locate any of them, he unleashed his fury on the church in a horrific yet indirect way, similar to a child seeking inappropriate attention. "

The ? I have regarding this statement is. Why then was he firing into the church from the outside upon arrival? I personally believe he thought that the inlaws were inside and wanted to kill them, but he also wanted to inflict as much devistation as possible. If he did realize that the inlaws weren't there, I believe it wasn't until after he had already carried out the attack inside. It's possible he may have been looking for them while inside, and realized he didn't see them. Maybe I'm wrong, but it just seems to me that he was just hell bent on killing. Moo


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Just my opinion but I'm asking the question to myself - why didn't he go to the home of his inlaws, even in the middle of the night and break his way in if the was primary intent was taking their lives? He's likely know what vehicle they drove and whether or not it was parked in front of the church. For that matter he had opportunity to observe whether or they entered the church just by parking on the side of the road and watching.

Pure speculation of course but if one is intent on murder, to attack a church filled with 50 or more people seems absolutely grandiose if the intended victim is only one or two persons. Saying that, it's impossible to make sense of the actions or thoughts from a demented and psychotic mind.

 

[MistyWaters]

I think he fired from the outside to provide chaos. If someone was armed inside and he came in shooting, not knowing who was armed would make him a target. By shooting from the outside, you would need to duck and cover because you wouldn’t know who exactly was firing. Then once everyone was hiding and in panic he came in. Just more proof of what a coward he was. IMOO.

"Two more people were killed outside the building......."
https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/t...ay-have-been-targeting-his-mother-law-n817961

I don't recall if it was stated when the two people were killed outside the building, if it was before or after he was inside the church.

 

[CARIIS]

I am not justifying -- I think we are going to find that they are getting the order a little off. The rage towards those around is emerging - but IMo it is emerging in somewhat of cocoon.

IMO the core deal is acute mental illness - psychosis or delusional thinking which exacerbates the feelings of rage.

As more descriptions emerge of his behavior during the assault I feel more inclined to conclude that we are talking about an individual in an acute psychotic/delusional state of mind.

My sense is we are heading much more in the James Holmes arena, also like planned parenthood guy.

There apparently was a freezy - typically you get a blank empty stare, when your talking other mental illness issues.

I think he was hearing voices, or believing that people in the church were after him or that he was doing gods mission -- something along those lines as opposed to domestic as we think about it.

The threatening texts might be IMO helpful here. Were they based in reality? Did they have a paranoid feeling to them? Were they orderly , or hard to understand and or follow. They ought to help with state of mind, emotional state , did they have delusional component to them ? An entity commanding him to be threatening -- that kind of info.

moo


IMO as more emerges I think we will find a lot of people , in different settings who were overtly scared by him. There would have to be childhood stuff that emerged, resulting in family members very early on being very freaked out by him starting in youth

we will see -- buy I def think we are in the Holmes /Congresswoman /Parenthood shooters arena

Interestingly , the shooting as approaching struck me initially as odd, but as more emerges it seems as if it was kinda the way it hit me initially, that this was about a bigger thing -- shooting at a building , again takes me to frenzy.

moo

 

[Tbone144]

"Two more people were killed outside the building......."
https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/t...ay-have-been-targeting-his-mother-law-n817961

I don't recall if it was stated when the two people were killed outside the building, if it was before or after he was inside the church.

I was curious about that too. Were the two people killed outside on church grounds, literally outside the building or were they killed at another location “outside of the church”.

 

[bluedivergirl]

Just my opinion but I'm asking the question to myself - why didn't he go to the home of his inlaws, even in the middle of the night and break his way in if the was primary intent was taking their lives? He's likely know what vehicle they drove and whether or not it was parked in front of the church. For that matter he had opportunity to observe whether or they entered the church just by parking on the side of the road and watching.

Pure speculation of course but if one is intent on murder, to attack a church filled with 50 or more people seems absolutely grandiose if the intended victim is only one or two persons. Saying that, it's impossible to make sense of the actions or thoughts from a demented and psychotic mind.

I think it goes back to the coward angle.

He'd already put his in-laws on notice with his threats. Most rural people can handle a gun, male and female. I don't think he could be successful.

Re: the crying children. He'd already hurt one child. I wonder if crying was a particular trigger to him ~ the kind of person who thinks 'why is that whiner torturing me' instead of what is the matter with the baby. Completely selfish, unable to look outward.

 

[BuTuCroquet?]

You're right, the wording isn't clear. I think in the context of how it's written, that it's literal — they were killed outside the church, not in another location like the gas station or a neighboring residence, for example. IMO

From NPR: The gunman opened fire even before he entered the building, unloading bullets into the walls from outside. Then, he stepped into the church and continued his attack, killing 23 parishioners inside. Two people were killed outside the church, and another person died on the way to the hospital.

I was curious about that too. Were the two people killed outside on church grounds, literally outside the building or were they killed at another location “outside of the church”.

 

[Deleted member 158085]

The article says they fear being recognized by the drug cartels. I would too. I'd want my family to come home at night without worrying some drug cartel with a vendetta was after him. Jmo

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These are militia people, right? If they want to come home to their families, maybe they should not be vigilantes.

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[BayouBelle_LA]

It took 4 minutes for the first LEO to arrive on scene per press conference. That's a long time. Thank goodness for the good citizen.

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

From press conference - The crime is not considered an act of domestic terrorism because it wasn't politically or religiously motivated.

They haven't been able to access his phone yet. They won't disclose the kind of phone because they don't won't every bad actor to have one.

They're checking shell casings to see if the gun was used in any other crimes. It was a semi automatic gun.

There was nothing in the database that would have prevented him from buying a gun.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

LE won't discuss motive. Still unclear.