TX - Five Yates children drowned, Houston, 20 June 2001 *Insanity*

[Bobbisangel]

If she felt she was being told by God to kill her chilren to save them and she knew that it was wrong to do so, then why didn't she ask her preacher if the devil was telling her to kill them or was it God telling her to do so? WHy didn't she question the idea of killing her children to save them?


I believe that there was a lady from one of the bookstores that Andrea frequented to purchase books for homeschooling her children. This lady said that Andrea was just like a normal person. She talked about how sweet the kids were and how Andrea was when she was in her store. I believe that she talked about ANdrea being her store very close to the day that Andrea killed the kids.


I believe that she knew it ws wrong to kill her children and this whole staory of thinking she was saving her children was a ploy from her lawyer to get her out of the death penalty.

And, what is so freakin wrong with bars on the windows of her room? If the only thing different is the bars on the windows, why is it so cruel for her to have bars on her windows while incarcerated.

Personally I wish she had to rot in a prison cell like Susan what'sherface is. They both killed their kids knowing that it was wrong.

DIdn't Andrea know "Thou salt not kill" was one of the 10 Commandents? After all, if she was so religious minded that she was aware of the God telling her to do this horrible thing, wouldn't she question Him going against his commandment to not kill????

It's all a ploy to garner sympathy for her. I hope if they find that she can go to the hospital for the rest of her day that the DA prosecutes her for the other 2 children's death and seeks the death penalty again.

I personally don't believe that Andrea believed that what she did was wrong...at that time. Her brain wasn't working right and she believed that God was telling her to kill her kids to prevent them from going to hell. That was real to her and so it was impossible for her to contact the pastor to question him. She believed God was telling her to do this. Why would she question what God himself was telling her to do?

A lot of society today still has a problem understanding mental illness or even believing that people are mentally ill. If you want to gain an understanding of bi-polar disorder pick up a copy of Patty Duke's book "Call Me Anna." She is bi-polar and is stabalized on medication so is able to live a full happy life. That isn't always the way her life went though. Her bi-polar began when she was a child actress but no one could figure what was wrong. It is a great book and I really learned a lot by reading it. I hope that there will come a day when society will take their heads out of the sand and realize that mental illness has to do with chemicals in the brain. It isn't something to be ashamed of and there are great meds that help a lot of people. For a lot of people mental illness is a roller coaster ride and if people had a choice they would rather not have a mental illness. I think those that have never had such a problem should say "there but for the grace of God go I."

 

[PrayersForMaura]

Scott Peterson and Mark Hacking didn't think what they did was wrong, either. :bang:

Mentally ill or NOT, those kids shouldn't have had to pay with their lives.
Five children dead and it's excusable?

And I've already written, I understand mental illness quite well. I hope not one more person wags a finger in my face about not understanding because no one has walked a mile in my shoes.
What I don't understand is how anyone can give a "get out of jail free pass"
to a murderer. Wrong is wrong is wrong is wrong. Period.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Scott Peterson and Mark Hacking didn't think what they did was wrong, either. :bang:

Mentally ill or NOT, those kids shouldn't have had to pay with their lives.
Five children dead and it's excusable?

And I've already written, I understand mental illness quite well. I hope not one more person wags a finger in my face about not understanding because no one has walked a mile in my shoes.
What I don't understand is how anyone can give a "get out of jail free pass"
to a murderer. Wrong is wrong is wrong is wrong. Period.

H*LL NO it isn't excusable and should not be- for anyone- mentally ill or not!
What I'm saying is that she should be in a locked ward in a hospital for the criminally insane until the day she dies.

I have not seen one person saying she should be allowed to walk away from this without being punished. What I have read is that some people think she is better off in a hospital where she can get help rather then "rotting" prison.

I hope you don't feel I was "wagging my finger" at you because it was not my intent. My point was that Mental illness comes in many shapes and sizes and not everyone experiences it the same.

 

[Only4Justice]

very few are ever cured-even when not as severely damaged as she is. She could be released for supervised visits home to her siblings but I doubt she will ever be well enuf to be released.
Its not feasible to think that the end result of living with the fact that you killed 5 children in a horrific manner would ever go away. That alone will keep her ill.
I know she has a conscience and it will prevent her from ever being able to function in life again.
She seems so passive really. I imagine she will be forever despondent.

newtv....excellent post. :clap:

...Its not feasible to think that the end result of living with the fact that you killed 5 children in a horrific manner would ever go away. That alone will keep her ill....

There's no doubt about this.

I think Andrea had some severe psychological disorders that weren't treated properly....COMBINE that with taking care of 5 small children, including a newborn, with no help whatsoever (which could drive a normal person 'CRAZY'..myself included) , and her mind began to play tricks on her for a very long time before she killed those dear children....She cried out for help in her suicide attempts....She didn't SPEAK. I'm sure Rusty was concerned, he did try to get her help (not mitigating his responsibility in keeping his children safe) :furious:

Finally, she had convinced herself they had to die...I am still angry at her and cannot read any posts about what those sweet babies went through. Noah, 7 years old, had never been in school. I'm sure Andrea wasn't exactly teaching him much during the last years of his life, as she was so sick. Rusty had to have seen this, questioned it. That breaks my heart that this poor child never even got to go to school :furious:

I wanted her to pay for the crime, regardless of what her mental problems were. I wanted her locked in a tiny cell with pictures of those children plastered all over the walls. I was so angry at this crime.

Once I read the book about Andrea, and realized how very sick she was, I believe her punishment is being still alive, and having the knowledge that she killed her own beloved children.

No matter where they put her, she will never know a day of peace in her life. And she may live to be 90 years old which would be the worst punishment of all....I also believe she will answer for this crime according to God's laws too. One thing I know for sure those precious babies are in heaven, no more pain of this world

___________________________________________

The above is only MY opinion and I AM entitled to have one

 

[PrayersForMaura]

H*LL NO it isn't excusable and should not be- for anyone- mentally ill or not!
What I'm saying is that she should be in a locked ward in a hospital for the criminally insane until the day she dies.

I have not seen one person saying she should be allowed to walk away from this without being punished. What I have read is that some people think she is better off in a hospital where she can get help rather then "rotting" prison.

I hope you don't feel I was "wagging my finger" at you because it was not my intent. My point was that Mental illness comes in many shapes and sizes and not everyone experiences it the same.

I'm sorry, I understand what you mean.
I guess I was getting the feeling from some posters that some of us who supposedly don't understand mental illness don't have compassion for people.
I think we do. We have compassion for those children who didn't deserve to die, especially in that manner.

I understand what you're saying. I don't know that I necessarily agree, but if she stays locked up in a hospital for the rest of her life as opposed to ever getting to be left out because she is suddenly "healed" then I might be more in favor for that than jail. I just don't think she should ever have a chance to be let out of jail or a hospital or wherever she ends up. She deserves to be locked up somewhere forever. That is just my opinion though.

Thanks for your post.

 

[PrayersForMaura]

newtv....excellent post. :clap:

...Its not feasible to think that the end result of living with the fact that you killed 5 children in a horrific manner would ever go away. That alone will keep her ill....

There's no doubt about this.

I think Andrea had some severe psychological disorders that weren't treated properly....COMBINE that with taking care of 5 small children, including a newborn, with no help whatsoever (which could drive a normal person 'CRAZY'..myself included) , and her mind began to play tricks on her for a very long time before she killed those dear children....She cried out for help in her suicide attempts....She didn't SPEAK. I'm sure Rusty was concerned, he did try to get her help (not mitigating his responsibility in keeping his children safe) :furious:

Finally, she had convinced herself they had to die...I am still angry at her and cannot read any posts about what those sweet babies went through. Noah, 7 years old, had never been in school. I'm sure Andrea wasn't exactly teaching him much during the last years of his life, as she was so sick. Rusty had to have seen this, questioned it. That breaks my heart that this poor child never even got to go to school :furious:

I wanted her to pay for the crime, regardless of what her mental problems were. I wanted her locked in a tiny cell with pictures of those children plastered all over the walls. I was so angry at this crime.

Once I read the book about Andrea, and realized how very sick she was, I believe her punishment is being still alive, and having the knowledge that she killed her own beloved children.

No matter where they put her, she will never know a day of peace in her life. And she may live to be 90 years old which would be the worst punishment of all....I also believe she will answer for this crime according to God's laws too. One thing I know for sure those precious babies are in heaven, no more pain of this world

___________________________________________

The above is only MY opinion and I AM entitled to have one

I admit I never read the book.
I will read the book some time.
Maybe my opinion would change then, but right now, I am still just so upset about her poor children.

 

[Socks]

I can't read this thread without getting myself worked up. I stand firm in my beliefs that this woman murdered those children for reasons unbeknowest to me, but surely I do not feel she was doing it to "save" them.
Why did she wait for nobody to be in the house before she mirdered those children? If she was as "psychotic" as you all are claiming, why not just kill them while they were sleeping....or kill them and Rusty...?

I'll tell you why...because she had a plan and nobody was going to ruin her chances of getting it done.

Yes, the woman has issues and I believe that you can suffer PPP, but IMO, mental illness isn't what murdered those children....their mother did and she was cognizant of the difference between right/wrong and good/evil and had the undelusional ability to call 911 and Rusty after her son lay there in feces and vomit and the others lay dead on the bed.

I wish that she would rot in a jail cell with pictures plastered on the walls of these children in their last moment. Sorry, but there is no mercy from me and no excuse good enough to kill your babies.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

I think she could have called 911 FIRST and asked for help to save her children...I think she was capable of that but did not do it.

Do you understand that she feared for her childrens' SOULS? She feared that because she was a bad mother that they would turn out to be bad children and end up in hell. So, to her, saving their souls from eternal damnation is exactly what she was doing. Calling 911 would defeat that purpose, no?

She could no more prevent her actions than a person dying of cancer could save their own life.

 

[bugs]

Scott Peterson and Mark Hacking didn't think what they did was wrong, either. :bang:

Mentally ill or NOT, those kids shouldn't have had to pay with their lives.
Five children dead and it's excusable?

And I've already written, I understand mental illness quite well. I hope not one more person wags a finger in my face about not understanding because no one has walked a mile in my shoes.
What I don't understand is how anyone can give a "get out of jail free pass"
to a murderer. Wrong is wrong is wrong is wrong. Period.

Yes they knew what they did was wrong that is why they hid the bodies. Andrea Yates is TOTALLY different in this case.

 

[2sisters]

I just don't understand why her husband is taking the blame in this. Was he a controlling husband? I just don't know much about him. Yes, he should have notice that she wasn't quite right but he didn't hold 5 kids underwater one by one. If she was so overwhelmed then why did she keep having kids? Was he just the type of husband that wanted to keep her "barefoot and pregnant"? I feel sorry for him b/c he has to think about those kids everyday. Why didn't she say it was too much for her and she needed help?

 

[Jeana (DP)]

I just don't understand why her husband is taking the blame in this. Was he a controlling husband? I just don't know much about him. Yes, he should have notice that she wasn't quite right but he didn't hold 5 kids underwater one by one. If she was so overwhelmed then why did she keep having kids? Was he just the type of husband that wanted to keep her "barefoot and pregnant"? I feel sorry for him b/c he has to think about those kids everyday. Why didn't she say it was too much for her and she needed help?

There is much to read about this case, 2sisters. It can be overwhelming. I'm no expert in mental illness; however, I don't think Andrea could have controlled her own behavior any more than a cancer patient can control the spread of cancer. Here's a snippet into Andrea's life, but I would recommend that you try and read more.


Quotes About Marriage and Family:
Andrea, talking to the jail psychiatrist: "It was the seventh deadly sin. My children weren't righteous. They stumbled because I was evil. The way I was raising them they could never be saved. They were doomed to perish in the fires of hell."
Source: Time.com

Rusty: "I can't carry her through life. That's too great a burden to bear. I need her to walk on her own. I can hold her hand, but I can't carry her."
Source: Time.com


Andrea's Suicide Attempts: On June 17, 1999, Andrea tried to kill herself by taking an overdose of pills. She was released from the hospital on June 24, 1999 and prescribed an antidepressant. She was diagnosed with postpartum depression and psychosis. Not taking the medication, Andrea began self mulitation and had hallucinations. Although Rusty knew of her hallucinations, he didn't tell Andrea's psychiatrist.
On July 20, 1999, tried to knife herself. She was hospitalized in a catatonic state for 10 days.


When drug therapy of Haldol improved her condition, Andrea was released from the hosptial. She and Rusty were warned of the dangers of her having another baby.
During March, 2000, in spite of the psychiatrist's warnings, and at Rusty's urging, Andrea became pregnant again and stopped taking Haldol.

After her father's death in March, 2001, Andrea regressed back to self-mutilation and she was again hospitalized.

A few months later, in May, 2001, she was back in the hospital for ten days.


Description of the Yates Marriage Relationship:
Not affiliated with any church, Andrea often deferred to Russell in public.

Andrea's family described Russell as selfish, controlling, demanding, unemotional, manipulative, superior, insensitive to Andrea's needs, and unwilling to help with the children. Although he denies the comment, he reportedly never changed a diaper.

Andrea and Russell had difficulty in communicating with each other.

They never left the kids with baby sitters.

Russell believed in a traditional marriage of a wife submitting to her husband, and that a man should be the breadwinner while the woman should be the homemaker and take care of all the housework and child care. He is described as considering women to be inferior.

Andrea home-schooled their children and reportedly had little time to herself.

Russell has stated that they wanted to live a simple life and to avoid social integration. Russell reportedly told Andrea that her weaknesses would be punished by God.


Warning Signs
Warning signs of Andrea's deteriorating mental condition were apparently not heeded: suicidal, underweight, uncommunicative, detached, severely depressed, overwhelmed, and acutely religious.

http://marriage.about.com/od/infamous/p/andreayates.htm

 

[SewingDeb]

Jeana,
I posted your link on Crime & Punishment forum, giving you credit. I also copy/pasted the pertinent parts in my post but wanted you to know it's not a direct copy from here. : )

I think these points are very important to anyone looking at this case and I agree with you that she could not control herself. She was not playing with a full deck and not having help from her husband while staying home with 5 young children....well, we see the results.

 

[2sisters]

She certainly should have been commited for a longer time period then. It sounds like she desprately needed help. Please don't think I am bashing anyones religion here but has anyone ever noticed that in some very religious people of protestant faiths there is a trend where the husband is very controlling? You see alot of homeschooling, the woman having no time to herself, wearing and doing as the husband pleases and with a large number of kids. I live in an area with alot of people like that. For example, one I noticed at the ballpark for little leauge there was a woman with a brood of kids dressed a bit frumpy and the husband was there and she spoke to nobody, it was as if the only one there was the husband and she was never alone, always with him. I don't know what religion the Yates family is but it has just been something I've noticed. I just don't know what to think of this case.

 

[bugs]

She certainly should have been commited for a longer time period then. It sounds like she desprately needed help. Please don't think I am bashing anyones religion here but has anyone ever noticed that in some very religious people of protestant faiths there is a trend where the husband is very controlling? You see alot of homeschooling, the woman having no time to herself, wearing and doing as the husband pleases and with a large number of kids. I live in an area with alot of people like that. For example, one I noticed at the ballpark for little leauge there was a woman with a brood of kids dressed a bit frumpy and the husband was there and she spoke to nobody, it was as if the only one there was the husband and she was never alone, always with him. I don't know what religion the Yates family is but it has just been something I've noticed. I just don't know what to think of this case.

Oh my, you are opening up a whole new can of worms... :silenced:

 

[Jeana (DP)]

More evidence has emerged of the specific and damaging influence of Christian fundamentalism on Russell and Andrea Yates. The couple was apparently bombarded with correspondence from Michael and Rachel Woroniecki, a pair of traveling evangelists who preach the most morbid and fanatical form of fundamentalism.

Michael Woroniecki has described working women as “witches” and maintained that “As man was created to dominate, God reveals that woman was created to be his helpmate. Thus the role of woman is derived, not from culture, but from the sin of Eve at the creation of the world.”

Rachel Woroniecki wrote to Andrea Yates, “Life is so short. It is so very cruel. It is so lonely and empty. You must accept the reality that this life is under the curse of sin and death.”


http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/mar2002/yate-m16.shtml


The Yates were acolytes of a controversial fire-and-brimstone street preacher named Michael Peter Woroniecki. The "Reverend" believes that "all women are descendants of Eve and Eve was a witch. Women, particularly women who work outside the home, are wicked."

Pure and simple (as insane as it is) Andrea Yates was taught that she was evil and that evil was passed from generation to generation. After Andrea Yates was arrested for the murder of her 'evil' kids she asked the police to shave her head so she could see the 666 on her skull.

The man of the house, Rusty Yates called his wife a victim presumably of post-natal depression. But in reality Andrea Yates was a victim of Cult Religion as practiced by Rusty Yates. Andrea was kept 'barefoot and pregnant' with one pregnancy after another, forced to home school her kids in the teachings of the insane Michael Peter Woroniecki and was convinced of her own evil of simply being born in the first place.

The reason no one wants to talk about this is because right wing Christian fundamentalists are not rational people. In a world filled with subtle shades of gray, the black or white, right or wrong, good or evil mentality does not make a good citizen. An honest democracy requires compassion, contemplation, flexibility and most importantly an agreement to disagree without rancor (the usual rhetoric of this column notwithstanding. But on the other hand we don't have an honest democracy do we?) The Republicans, the party of monopolists, robber barons and money launderers are nothing without the Cult of Fundamentalism. The Republicans, a true minority party, have sold their soul to the Cult of Intolerance in exchange for exaggerated representation. They pay lip service to the rabid Christian right wing on issues like abortion but they don't actually do anything about it. To do so would be to insure their defeat at the polls regardless of the zealous right wing voting bloc.

http://www.subversivetalk.com/week107.html

 

[Socks]

Yes, let's blame everyone but Andrea for the murders of her five children.

Miserable in your marraige? Get a divorce, don't murder your children.

 

[newtv]

god you guys have really nailed things here..so proud of you for doing the homework.
I did not even know some of these things though deduced many. Just think if you had 5 kids. Just having 5 kids and never a baby sitter is enough to drive a sane woman mad.
Add in home schooling and a husband who pply wants sex every day and determines you should be an isolated family-not socially integrated,etc.
Post partum depression that never has a chance to heal before another child is born.
Rusty wanting that 5th child even after all those breakdowns and suicide attempts, etc. is criminal in and of itself.

I do not know what you guys think about the concept of acting out another persons wishes for them by way of sensing what they want but in my opinion it is the husband who was planting the seeds in andrea that she wasnt living up to gods will and was a failure.
If he really felt burdened by his wife who was having mental breakdowns, etc. she may have sense he wanted her dead or wanted out of the marriage.
She then may have acted out his wishes by killing the children.
I cant explain ths any better on the net-too much to type but it is an educated opinion not just speculation.
Some peoples role in a family is to become the scapegoat and she was rusty's. The scapegoat in a family often does the dirty work for the family and it takes the spotlight off the other members.
Everything that isnt working is blamed on the scapegoat so the other members look good.

Her environmental circumstances alone would serve to cause a reactive depression so severe she would never crawl back from it. So add in post partum and whatever other psychological stuff into the mix and a perfect storm is created.
What is frightening to me is that I believe the environmental stuff alone would create the conditions to want to die. If you had no way out suicide becomes that way out.
But add in the relion and the idea that she was he devil incarnate..it just couldnt be a worse mix.

If anyone doesnt think rusty is weird and unemotional just listen to him talk. He is one cool customer. He defends her but its as if nothing gets thru to him.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Yes, let's blame everyone but Andrea for the murders of her five children.

Miserable in your marraige? Get a divorce, don't murder your children.

Overly simplictic don't you think? Everyone knows that she murdered them. She accepts responsibility. However, there is a reason that she murdered the kids. There's also a difference between a "reason" and an "excuse." Should we not try to understand what could drive a person to do these things so that maybe it can be prevented in the future?

 

[Socks]

Overly simplictic don't you think? Everyone knows that she murdered them. She accepts responsibility. However, there is a reason that she murdered the kids. There's also a difference between a "reason" and an "excuse." Should we not try to understand what could drive a person to do these things so that maybe it can be prevented in the future?

There is never a "reason" to murder your children. Sorry, Jeana, I'm just overly simplistic like that.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

There is never a "reason" to murder your children. Sorry, Jeana, I'm just overly simplistic like that.

Again, there's a difference between a "reason," and an "excuse." It happened, she accepts that she did it. If you're interested in trying to figure out how to prevent it in the future, then discussion of these "reasons" is necessary.