TX - 'Lori Ruff', Longview, WhtFem UP9863, *General Discussion and Theories* #5

[PoirotryInMotion]

Found the obit for the Tacoma Debbie St@lder. Weren't some of you discussing the H@rdy family earlier? About the physical resemblance? If so, they are definitely related to the St@lders - says so in her obit (I've tweaked the spelling in the obit):

"She was born and raised in Tacoma and graduated from Mount Tahoma High School in 1974 alongside her best friend (who just happened to be related) Cheri May (H@rdy). ..."

http://tinyurl.com/z26ho8w

Middle name confirmed to be Carol from this obit (though I had an earlier source saying her middle initial was L).

I haven't read up on all the H@rdy family posts (will do a search later), but thought I'd throw this in for those of you who have. Was this family posted about in relation to the Turners? (Fife is a 10-minute drive from Tacoma).

ETA: Scanned the thread and I think the only H family being discussed is Howder. If so, ignore this, unless you're interested in the Tacoma St@lders.

 

[sunnynz]

Is there any other evidence tying "Lori Ruff" to the Seattle area besides the fact that she stole the social security number and birth certificate of a person who died there?

There is the mention in the FOIA documents of Terry Turner saying that Fred Howder from WA may know something about FLEK.

 

[Gardener1850]

There is the mention in the FOIA documents of Terry Turner saying that Fred Howder from WA may know something about FLEK.

Interesting that you bring that up Sunnynz. I have always interpreted Terry Turner's statement about Fred Howder differently. IIRC, Terry Turner was asked who might know the story about his girls dying in the fire and he replied that Fred Howder might know "the whole story". What that "whole story" refers to is up to interpretation, I guess. I always took it to mean the story of the fire. If we take it to mean Fred Howder might know the whole story of FLEK then it's a lot more incriminating, IMO. That also implies TT knew something, IMO and he claimed to not know anything about her.

IDK, I look at pictures of the H family and I look at pictures of the Turners and I think FLEK looks more like a Turner than a Howder. Maybe the part about "FLEK could be Fred Howder's daughter" was a mis-direct because he thought FLEK was his own daughter? Could he have just mentioned Howder because he knew how many daughters he had--that it would take a while to track them all down? Just thinking out loud here. I have no clue. All I know is I located all of FH's daughters that are mentioned publicly and none are FLEK.

 

[Gardener1850]

Can anyone tell me if janice Arlene Younger has ever been compared and ruled out ...
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/y/younger_janice.html

I found a newspaper article that says Arlene Younger was matched to skeletal remains found in 1983. It doesn't say her first name, Janice, in the article but her details are the same. ETA: I tried to post this to her thread here but it is closed: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?181113-Janice-Arlene-Younger-(19)-Monett-MO-1981 Anyone know what to do to get her removed from the missing persons lists?

 

[sunnynz]

Interesting that you bring that up Sunnynz. I have always interpreted Terry Turner's statement about Fred Howder differently. IIRC, Terry Turner was asked who might know the story about his girls dying in the fire and he replied that Fred Howder might know "the whole story". What that "whole story" refers to is up to interpretation, I guess. I always took it to mean the story of the fire. If we take it to mean Fred Howder might know the whole story of FLEK then it's a lot more incriminating, IMO. That also implies TT knew something, IMO and he claimed to not know anything about her.

IDK, I look at pictures of the H family and I look at pictures of the Turners and I think FLEK looks more like a Turner than a Howder. Maybe the part about "FLEK could be Fred Howder's daughter" was a mis-direct because he thought FLEK was his own daughter? Could he have just mentioned Howder because he knew how many daughters he had--that it would take a while to track them all down? Just thinking out loud here. I have no clue. All I know is I located all of FH's daughters that are mentioned publicly and none are FLEK.

I definitely read it as TT saying that FH might know the whole story about FLEK as opposed to the whole story about the fire. I know FH's daughters as listed in the obit are all accounted for but there have been people on here who have uncovered the fact that there were a lot of foster type situations happening, many inter-connected families, etc, i.e. not your usual standard nuclear family. So there's every chance that FH fathered more girls - whether biologically or in a foster scenario.

I know it's very loose but it's the one piece of verbatim testimony that we have from TT on the whole thing and I think it would be an odd thing for him to say and for Velling to record unless there was something worth investigating behind it.

However, I also think KRD is an excellent prospect so I'm certainly not going to hang my hat on the Howder theory!

 

[Hank36]

No. She could have been from anywhere but remember that back in the 1980's there was no internet. She had to find out about the girl's deaths somehow. The most common way in the 70's and 80's was to walk through a cemetery and choose a dead child close to their age. She may have done just that but she got extra lucky that the child she chose--Becky Sue was the only one born in a different state from where she died. That made it even harder to discover the ID theft. Many people on these boards have theorized she knew about the Turner girls deaths because she was related to them somehow. We have no evidence one way or the other of that, however. Anyone who lived in an area that published an article on the fire could know about it.

This woman strikes me a both highly motivated, reasonably intelligent, and likely educated. Back in the 1980's, the library in a major city such as Seattle may well have had a major geneology collection--prior to the internet, such libraries played a major role as physical information repositories. The Seattle Public library currently has a special geneology collection:

The Genealogy Collection houses more than 40,000 items dealing primarily with records and families of North America - including those from the original 13 colonies, the Old Northwest Territory and from states referred to as "Gateways to the West."

The Genealogy Reference Desk and Collection is located on Level 9. Genealogy librarians are available to help with your research, answer questions, and locate materials.

Genealogy Hours
Tuesday - Saturday: 11 a.m. - noon and 1 p.m - 3 p.m.
Sunday: 1 p.m. - 3 p.m.

You may schedule a 30-minute appointments with a Genealogy Librarian in person at the Level 9 History, Travel & Maps desk or via Ask-a Librarian.

Patrons must come to the library for the appointment; we do not provide phone appointments. Appointments are available Tuesday - Friday: 3 p.m. and 4 p.m.

https://www.spl.org/locations/central-library/cen-plan-a-visit/cen-special-collections

What I'm trying to say is that back in the 1980's, finding an individual fitting a particular birth/death profile (as did Becky Sue) was mostly a matter of simply knowing where to look for such profiles.

 

[mrseeker]

Interesting that you bring that up Sunnynz. I have always interpreted Terry Turner's statement about Fred Howder differently. IIRC, Terry Turner was asked who might know the story about his girls dying in the fire and he replied that Fred Howder might know "the whole story". What that "whole story" refers to is up to interpretation, I guess. I always took it to mean the story of the fire. If we take it to mean Fred Howder might know the whole story of FLEK then it's a lot more incriminating, IMO. That also implies TT knew something, IMO and he claimed to not know anything about her.

IDK, I look at pictures of the H family and I look at pictures of the Turners and I think FLEK looks more like a Turner than a Howder. Maybe the part about "FLEK could be Fred Howder's daughter" was a mis-direct because he thought FLEK was his own daughter? Could he have just mentioned Howder because he knew how many daughters he had--that it would take a while to track them all down? Just thinking out loud here. I have no clue. All I know is I located all of FH's daughters that are mentioned publicly and none are FLEK.

I agree. TT seems to just be trying to remember who might have knowledge of the fire from so many years ago that they still were in touch with. I guess you could also interpret TT meant more than that, but I don't get that from the little said about it. I would think perhaps thousands of people knew about it at the time at least from press reports. All those years later, i think TT is just thinking of the people he knows and sees now that know that story. We really know so little about FLEK though. So many holes in the info we have. Not much of a file in the FOIA releases we have either.

 

[mrseeker]

This woman strikes me a both highly motivated, reasonably intelligent, and likely educated. Back in the 1980's, the library in a major city such as Seattle may well have had a major geneology collection--prior to the internet, such libraries played a major role as physical information repositories. The Seattle Public library currently has a special geneology collection:

What I'm trying to say is that back in the 1980's, finding an individual fitting a particular birth/death profile (as did Becky Sue) was mostly a matter of simply knowing where to look for such profiles.

I am not sure she had to work that hard. She could have simply gone through microfiche rolls for major newspapers, going directly to the death notices for the years she wanted to be born around looking for a dead child of her target age. Could have done it at random.

 

[Laughing]

I am not sure she had to work that hard. She could have simply gone through microfiche rolls for major newspapers, going directly to the death notices for the years she wanted to be born around looking for a dead child of her target age. Could have done it at random.

Yes, but: she had to have a rather specific skill set to get there. Like the KSAs in a job description or resume, she needed knowledge, skills, and ability to gain the information. I did a lot of genealogy in the pre-Internet years. Identifying the library with relevant information, locating that library (no GPS in your car, remember,) reaching the library while it's open (many genealogy collections and newspaper collections have limited hours,) finding a useful fiche, scheduling machine/fiche reader access, wading through hand-typed indexing with transcription errors....

If we knew where to look, I expect we would find her handwriting in the access logs of more than one library special collection....

Re: her regional accent: we need those Texas Business Women for that one, yes indeedy we do!

:seeya:

 

[Linda9681]

I wonder if the library in PA had access to papers from WA... Maybe she started there looking and ended up with a WA ID.. There has to be SOME reason for the library number being mentioned


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[mrseeker]

Yes, but: she had to have a rather specific skill set to get there. Like the KSAs in a job description or resume, she needed knowledge, skills, and ability to gain the information. I did a lot of genealogy in the pre-Internet years. Identifying the library with relevant information, locating that library (no GPS in your car, remember,) reaching the library while it's open (many genealogy collections and newspaper collections have limited hours,) finding a useful fiche, scheduling machine/fiche reader access, wading through hand-typed indexing with transcription errors....

If we knew where to look, I expect we would find her handwriting in the access logs of more than one library special collection....

Re: her regional accent: we need those Texas Business Women for that one, yes indeedy we do!

:seeya:

I remember those days all too well. The LDS was also a great resource pre internet as I recall for genealogy. I remember in high school and on nationwide job hunts back in those days after college, finding newspapers from all over in hard copy and on microfiche at most major libraries and college libraries. She did have special tech skills on her resume, but not sure most people could not find this info back then. My mother did research back then at libraries, and color tv was pretty much hi tech for her.

 

[Gardener1850]

I wonder if the library in PA had access to papers from WA... Maybe she started there looking and ended up with a WA ID.. There has to be SOME reason for the library number being mentioned


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It was mentioned in another thread that the library in PA was one of the first to get coin-operated computers in 1981. I did genealogy at libraries in the late 80's and early 90's the old fashioned way with microfish but I wonder if the PA library having such updated technology made it easier to find the news clipping? My recollection from that time period was that it was hard to find things from out of state unless it was in a national newspaper. My state library did not carry many out of state papers at the time.

 

[Gardener1850]

Yes, but: she had to have a rather specific skill set to get there. Like the KSAs in a job description or resume, she needed knowledge, skills, and ability to gain the information. I did a lot of genealogy in the pre-Internet years. Identifying the library with relevant information, locating that library (no GPS in your car, remember,) reaching the library while it's open (many genealogy collections and newspaper collections have limited hours,) finding a useful fiche, scheduling machine/fiche reader access, wading through hand-typed indexing with transcription errors....

If we knew where to look, I expect we would find her handwriting in the access logs of more than one library special collection....

Re: her regional accent: we need those Texas Business Women for that one, yes indeedy we do!

:seeya:

I wonder if such logs even exist still? Libraries today don't even have the sign-out cards in the back of books anymore. It's all computer generated receipt slips. IF such logs still existed on file somewhere I would check the Strafford PA logs. But who knows how long it took her to find the article or even how long she waited between finding it and enacting her plan. And of course we have no idea what name to look for...

 

[Gardener1850]

Something has been bothering me as I look at these old newspaper clippings about the fire. None of the articles say Becky Sue's exact birthdate. The exact date wasn't even on the grave. FLEK would have needed that date to get the birth certificate. If we assume she found this info through a genealogy search there must be other clippings we are missing like a detailed obituary for each girl or a birth announcement in the CA newspaper. I have tried to find these with internet searching and so far I'm unsuccessful, but that doesn't mean those news clippings don't exist somewhere on microfiche.

 

[Owutatangledweb]

Something has been bothering me as I look at these old newspaper clippings about the fire. None of the articles say Becky Sue's exact birthdate. The exact date wasn't even on the grave. FLEK would have needed that date to get the birth certificate. If we assume she found this info through a genealogy search there must be other clippings we are missing like a detailed obituary for each girl or a birth announcement in the CA newspaper. I have tried to find these with internet searching and so far I'm unsuccessful, but that doesn't mean those news clippings don't exist somewhere on microfiche.

I haven't looked but if she started with the death certificate, the birthday is probably on there.

 

[milkymama]

I haven't looked but if she started with the death certificate, the birthday is probably on there.

Its not on the death certificate. Also the death cert was obtained as part of the investigation. It wasn't in the lock box. I don't think she ever got a copy of it.

 

[Linda9681]

So here is a thought... WHAT IF THE CORONER was the one providing the info. He would have access to it ALL. Good way to make $$$ on the side. His name is so close to Laciner I can't discount the possibility


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Gardener1850]

I haven't looked but if she started with the death certificate, the birthday is probably on there.

I've never even considered she would try to get the death certificate first. That would raise more red flags, imo, than getting the birth certificate. Plus, Becky Sue's name was spelled as Beckie on the death record. This would make it harder to locate and order a birth record. Would also make it harder to catch the theft. BST was the perfect identity to steal. FLEK either had help or she stumbled on the perfect record to use to start over. JMO.

 

[Gardener1850]

So here is a thought... WHAT IF THE CORONER was the one providing the info. He would have access to it ALL. Good way to make $$$ on the side. His name is so close to Laciner I can't discount the possibility


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I can't discount it either with all we found out about that coroner's history. However, I do find it extraordinary that the only people in the country with the exact spelling of that name from the notes page lived in the same apartment complex as Lori did in Dallas. I think she had to have known them. Here's a question for anyone that can answer, when did coroners start putting their reports on computers? Would they have been computerized in 1988?

 

[Gardener1850]

Does anyone think this woman looks like Lori?