UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #5

[rightsaidfred]

I found it interesting that she put the food back and then decided to 'break cover' (for want of better phrasing) and withdrew cash from the atm, knowing that her card was probaby being watched.

I do wonder if the whole exercise started to feel rather pointless after Victoria died. It would certainly explain why they stopped moving across the country.

Perhaps CM had talked about handing themselves in, MG wouldn't agree, so she used the card as a way of flagging their location.

Pure speculation of course.

 

[Nikynoo]

12:41pm

'Let me eat, let me eat'​

Mark Gordon upon being arrested collapses to the floor shortly after.
He keeps telling the officer "Let me eat, let me eat. Let me have my food".
Marten adds: "Leave him alone, let him eat please."
Gordon is then detained on the floor.

Live - The Argus

This strikes me as a very unusual exchange. I appreciate they were very hungry, but imo there’s an element of trying to control the situation. The UK police are known to give snacks and drinks during interviews and I’d assume would want them as co-operative as possible. I’ve heard of homeless people being interviewed to be given a quick meal, so they’re able to focus on answering questions and not hunger. Obviously neither are thinking clearly, but it’s just an exchange that really suggests (JMO) the lack of trust, potential victim mentality and desperation to regain some control in the way things were going.

I've been wondering for some time whether MG has a medical condition? It would account for the many breaks during the hearings.

 

[Nikynoo]

I do wonder if the whole exercise started to feel rather pointless after Victoria died. It would certainly explain why they stopped moving across the country.

Perhaps CM had talked about handing themselves in, MG wouldn't agree, so she used the card as a way of flagging their location.

Pure speculation of course.

Good speculation IMO.

 

[Smccat]

And yet she left her dumped in a bag with rubbish no?

CM knew where Victoria's body was. I am not saying any of it or how Victoria was left is in any way acceptable because it isn't. Just that putting her in a bin like that she would have ended up at landfill which goes against what appeared to me to be a wish from CM for Victoria to be buried.

 

[Twittens]

I found it interesting that she put the food back and then decided to 'break cover' (for want of better phrasing) and withdrew cash from the atm, knowing that her card was probaby being watched.

I think it was a rational decision. Knowing there was a baby, whether dead or alive and whether with them or hidden elsewhere, I think she decided that the card being flagged and leading police to a location they'd been some hours or (more likely) days ago was a better scenario than being arrested for shoplifting and carted off into custody then and there.

jmoo

 

[Skigh]

Constance Marten was 'reduced to scavenging from bins', court hears

Constance Marten, 36, and Mark Gordon, 49, are accused of killing their baby Victoria by taking her on the run in January last year to prevent the child being taken away by social services.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Mr Cooley called the police at 9.26pm and continued to follow the couple in his car.

He stood at one end of Golf Drive, leading to the golf club, while the couple walked to the other end.

'The police arrived and I pointed the male and female out and watched as they approached,' he said.

He said he saw 'a lot of commotion' and residents came out and asked what was going on.

Sergeant Robert Button said he was told about the sighting and deployed urgently to attend with a number of other officers.

The couple both smelt like homeless people, he said.

'She had what appeared to be furniture stuffing- so you imagine the inside of a sofa, like a spongey material between each layer of clothing which appeared to act as insulation.

'She smelt unclean, unwashed. Certain people I've dealt with in the past, members of the street community have a certain stale smell after a period of not washing and that was the smell coming from Marten. He said Gordon smelt very similar.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

IMO it would be prejudicial if jurors saw it. She says Victoria died on 11 January, which is the day before she bought the petrol. The way the Daily Mail puts it is suggestive of murder, which she is not accused of. I know "kill" can also cover manslaughter, but to buy petrol and then kill someone afterwards has certain connotations.

She said in her interview that she considered burning the body but couldn't do it.

It could be that the prosecution will accept a date of 11 January for Victoria's death, given that she bought petrol on 12 January.

Also it could be that she wanted the petrol for cooking in the woods. But I think that's less likely. They seem to have been more into eating sweets, which keeps you awake but doesn't give you much nutrition or fill you up. They were perhaps not so super-skilled at living on the run as was suggested during the manhunt.

As for the bins outside the golf club, IIRC the defence counsel challenged a witness and put it to her that the couple she saw may not have been CM and MG. Since it's being reported that two sets of footage show them rummaging through the bins, I guess it's now accepted that it was them.

I haven't seen the video, but if these were large steel bins about 2 metres high as they probably were, I suspect they may not have been looking to take things out but rather investigating the idea of putting Victoria's body into one of the bins.

She was buying a whole basket load of tins of soup* so I'm guessing they were cooking / heating it as tinned soup is revolting cold and there'd be other things more filling to eat if you weren't heating it IMO.

ETA: *may not be soup, could be cans of cola or some other tinned product

 

[wowiezowie]

She was buying a whole basket load of tins of soup so I'm guessing they were cooking / heating it as tinned soup is revolting cold and there'd be other things more filling to eat if you weren't heating it IMO.

If you're referring to the basket of food in the petrol station it's actually about 4 or 5 cans of Coke and not soup. It seems like a basket of junk food/snacks.

 

[Telltale]

She was buying a whole basket load of tins of soup so I'm guessing they were cooking / heating it as tinned soup is revolting cold and there'd be other things more filling to eat if you weren't heating it IMO.

If they were buying soup, I think this is what it was for. Petrol might not be the safest way to start a fire but it damn well will start one, wet wood or not.

They could have gone for diesel as well, but petrol is more flammable so you could use and carry less of it.

I don't know how much she bought but reducing even a little babies body into ash would take a fair while of sustained intensive heat. I'm trying not to think too hard on the mechanics of it but it wouldn't just be a case of a bit of wood and a bottle of petrol.

Outside of the controlled high temperatures of a crematorium oven you are probably looking at a couple of hours while keeping a pyre built well enough to let air circulate underneath. A few hundred pounds of good dry wood would be needed.

Of course she might not have realised that. Many who have tried DIY cremation have found it takes a lot more than they think to truly get rid of a body.

You'd have thought she'd Google it if she'd been thinking of it and been put off when she saw how big and sustained the fire would need to be. I can't imagine they didn't buy more burner phones, though I don't know if any phone use/exhibits brought up after they left their burning car.

 

[Smccat]

She was buying a whole basket load of tins of soup so I'm guessing they were cooking / heating it as tinned soup is revolting cold and there'd be other things more filling to eat if you weren't heating it IMO.

In the petrol station shop footage I see cans of Coke not soup. I have just had another look as I thought I had mistook it for Campbells soup but I am still seeing coke. Am I looking at the right footage?

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

If you're referring to the basket of food in the petrol station it's actually about 4 or 5 cans of Coke and not soup. It seems like a basket of junk food/snacks.

Oh... hmm... just looked twice since you raise this issue. Now I can't work out if it's the logo of the tinned brand of soup or cans of Cola but they look more like soup to me, however, now I'm unsure. Did anyone list what she purchased?
.

Constance Marten was 'reduced to scavenging from bins', court hears

Constance Marten, 36, and Mark Gordon, 49, are accused of killing their baby Victoria by taking her on the run in January last year to prevent the child being taken away by social services.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Alyce]

At the time of her arrest, Constance Marten told officers her name was Arabella.

"Constance, Arabella, whoever you are..." PS Button said while looking at a photograph of Constance Marten on his phone.
"Where's your child?" he asked, but the couple did not reply.

At one point in the footage, Constance Marten seems to refer to Mark Gordon as "Daddy Bear" when asked once again about the child's location.
"Daddy Bear, are you alright?", she said at another point. "I love you," she added, speaking to Mr Gordon.

When she was told she was under arrest, she said: "You can't arrest me for hiding a pregnancy."

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon hid baby's location from police, court hears

In new footage, police officers are heard asking "where's your child?", but the couple do not reply.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Alyce]

Earlier, the jury watched footage recorded on CCTV cameras at Hollingbury Golf Club in the early hours of 20 February 2023.
It showed Mark Gordon going up a fire escape and then apparently trying to force a door of the building.

The footage also showed Mark Gordon and Constance Marten rummaging through a large wheelie bin, taking things out of it and putting them in a "bag for life."

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon hid baby's location from police, court hears

In new footage, police officers are heard asking "where's your child?", but the couple do not reply.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Telltale]

Oh... hmm... just looked twice since you raise this issue. Now I can't work out if it's the logo of the tinned brand of soup or cans of Cola but they look more like soup to me, however, now I'm unsure. Did anyone list what she purchased?
.

Constance Marten was 'reduced to scavenging from bins', court hears

Constance Marten, 36, and Mark Gordon, 49, are accused of killing their baby Victoria by taking her on the run in January last year to prevent the child being taken away by social services.

www.dailymail.co.uk

There's mention Marten tried to shoplift 'a tin of food' from a previous store, but plenty of tinned foods can be eaten cold. I always have enjoyed tinned sweetcorn.

Of course this and the CCTV from the shop was on the 27th of February, just before they got caught and long after Victoria had died. I imagine they were aware of media reports that they'd been seen in the area. I'd be surprised if they were daring to start campfires at this point, even if they had earlier on.

 

[Skigh]

In the petrol station shop footage I see cans of Coke not soup. I have just had another look as I thought I had mistook it for Campbells soup but I am still seeing coke. Am I looking at the right footage?

I agree,definitely cans of coke.

 

[pokerowan]

Oh... hmm... just looked twice since you raise this issue. Now I can't work out if it's the logo of the tinned brand of soup or cans of Cola but they look more like soup to me, however, now I'm unsure. Did anyone list what she purchased?
.

Constance Marten was 'reduced to scavenging from bins', court hears

Constance Marten, 36, and Mark Gordon, 49, are accused of killing their baby Victoria by taking her on the run in January last year to prevent the child being taken away by social services.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Definitely cans of Coke, I can make out the curls of the logo really clearly. The chap at the till also scans one and takes the rest of the cans out without scanning, suggesting they were all the same and he adjusted the quantity on the total.

There's also some milk in the basket and a multibag of Skips (prawn cocktail flavour crisps). On the counter are a packaged sandwich, a packaged bap or roll of some kind, and what looks like the branding for Aero Bubbles (chocolate).

In the actual footage I can also see Starburst, Maoam, and what looks like blocks of cake wrapped in clear plastic.

There's nothing substantial here. I would have bought less than this for a sleepover when I was twelve. It's pure empty nutrition and it's definitely not cost-effective either.

 

[Alyce]

There's mention Marten tried to shoplift 'a tin of food' from a previous store, but plenty of tinned foods can be eaten cold. I always have enjoyed tinned sweetcorn.

Of course this was on the 27th of February, just before they got caught and long after Victoria had died. They were aware of media reports that they'd been seen in the area I imagine. I'd be surprised if they were daring to start campfires at this point, even if they had earlier on.

I wonder if she had second thoughts when the tin - fell through ?



A few minutes before their arrest on 27 February, a CCTV camera had filmed Constance Marten in the Post Office on Hollingbury Place in Brighton, putting a tin of food her pocket which then fell through onto the floor, after which she picked it up and returned it to the shelf.

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon hid baby's location from police, court hears

In new footage, police officers are heard asking "where's your child?", but the couple do not reply.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Nikynoo]

Oh... hmm... just looked twice since you raise this issue. Now I can't work out if it's the logo of the tinned brand of soup or cans of Cola but they look more like soup to me, however, now I'm unsure. Did anyone list what she purchased?
.

Constance Marten was 'reduced to scavenging from bins', court hears

Constance Marten, 36, and Mark Gordon, 49, are accused of killing their baby Victoria by taking her on the run in January last year to prevent the child being taken away by social services.

www.dailymail.co.uk

I've just put the video on my big screen. They are cans of coke (full fat).

 

[pokerowan]

I wonder if she had second thoughts when the tin - fell through ?



A few minutes before their arrest on 27 February, a CCTV camera had filmed Constance Marten in the Post Office on Hollingbury Place in Brighton, putting a tin of food her pocket which then fell through onto the floor, after which she picked it up and returned it to the shelf.

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon hid baby's location from police, court hears

In new footage, police officers are heard asking "where's your child?", but the couple do not reply.

www.bbc.co.uk

Even their coats were in bad condition then. These are not good signifiers that the environment was healthy for the child, even when put against an 'alternative lifestyle' defence.

 

[Nikynoo]

Definitely cans of Coke, I can make out the curls of the logo really clearly. The chap at the till also scans one and takes the rest of the cans out without scanning, suggesting they were all the same and he adjusted the quantity on the total.

There's also some milk in the basket and a multibag of Skips (prawn cocktail flavour crisps). On the counter are a packaged sandwich, a packaged bap or roll of some kind, and what looks like the branding for Aero Bubbles (chocolate).

In the actual footage I can also see Starburst, Maoam, and what looks like blocks of cake wrapped in clear plastic.

There's nothing substantial here. I would have bought less than this for a sleepover when I was twelve. It's pure empty nutrition and it's definitely not cost-effective either.

but it is comfort food.