UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #5

[Kye Zeeb]

Oh... hmm... just looked twice since you raise this issue. Now I can't work out if it's the logo of the tinned brand of soup or cans of Cola but they look more like soup to me, however, now I'm unsure. Did anyone list what she purchased?
.

Constance Marten was 'reduced to scavenging from bins', court hears

Constance Marten, 36, and Mark Gordon, 49, are accused of killing their baby Victoria by taking her on the run in January last year to prevent the child being taken away by social services.

www.dailymail.co.uk

I'm pretty sure it's full-sugar Coca Cola, looking at the logo and colours.

 

[pokerowan]

but it is comfort food.

Agreed. Must have been heartburn central though - especially if this is what they were consistently living off! A hot minute of this diet and you're riddled with toothache, not thinking clearly, and exhausted every day. It only takes a few months to develop a vitamin C deficiency and gum disease.

And if CM was breastfeeding this is even worse news for the baby's nutrition.

 

[Telltale]

but it is comfort food.

Thing is, if they were willing to interact like this but if so starving, why not takeaways? That's £25 worth of food or so. If they had or got themselves a burner phones, they could have called up, ordered under a fake name, paid cash and been in and out with mask on and hood up in far less time than it takes to shop like this.

They probably wouldn't want to repeatedly hit the same ones and it would be some risk, but some dude at a takeaway counter would have far less time to pay attention to them and they'd get a full hot meal

 

[Pidgy]

Who is Lisa Moffatt who asks CM questions, by implication (Argus) in the back of a police car in what was recorded as an emergency interview? Police officers are being identified using name and rank, so she probably wasn't police.

Jury to be shown bodycam footage of Marten and Gordon arrest - live updates

Live updates from the Old Bailey as the prosecution continues its case against Constance Marten and Mark Gordon

www.theargus.co.uk

 

[Rolypolyoly]

Agreed. Must have been heartburn central though - especially if this is what they were consistently living off! A hot minute of this diet and you're riddled with toothache, not thinking clearly, and exhausted every day. It only takes a few months to develop a vitamin C deficiency and gum disease.

And if CM was breastfeeding this is even worse news for the baby's nutrition.

Someone upthread pondered on the possibility of MG having a medical condition. I'm wondering if he could be diabetic?

All the sweets and fizzy drink, and the bags on the feet, coupled with using a stick to walk makes me think its a possibility.

Also asking the police to leave him alone and let him eat when they were arrested fits.

Who is Lisa Moffatt who asks CM questions, by implication (Argus) in the back of a police car in what was recorded as an emergency interview? Police officers are being identified using name and rank, so she probably wasn't police.

Jury to be shown bodycam footage of Marten and Gordon arrest - live updates

Live updates from the Old Bailey as the prosecution continues its case against Constance Marten and Mark Gordon

www.theargus.co.uk

Possibly a Social worker?

 

[Pidgy]

Thing is, if they were willing to interact like this but if so starving, why not takeaways? That's £25 worth of food or so. If they had or got themselves a burner phones, they could have called up, ordered under a fake name, paid cash and been in and out with mask on and hood up in far less time than it takes to shop like this.

They probably wouldn't want to repeatedly hit the same ones and it would be some risk, but some dude at a takeaway counter would have far less time to pay attention to them and they'd get a full hot meal

They probably weren't great at living off-grid. A big bag of porridge oats, and sort out a water supply, and you can live in the woods for a month, completely off-camera. Powdered milk an optional extra.

I hope we will find out the dates of their visits to the foodbank.

 

[Nikynoo]

Thing is, if they were willing to interact like this but if so starving, why not takeaways? That's £25 worth of food or so. If they had or got themselves a burner phones, they could have called up, ordered under a fake name, paid cash and been in and out with mask on and hood up in far less time than it takes to shop like this.

They probably wouldn't want to repeatedly hit the same ones and it would be some risk, but some dude at a takeaway counter would have far less time to pay attention to them and they'd get a full hot meal

i think by this point, their thought processes were in survival mode.

 

[Nikynoo]

Someone upthread pondered on the possibility of MG having a medical condition. I'm wondering if he could be diabetic?

All the sweets and fizzy drink, and the bags on the feet, coupled with using a stick to walk makes me think its a possibility.

Also asking the police to leave him alone and let him eat when they were arrested fits.



Possibly a Social worker?

come to think of it, so does the foot problem. Aren't diabetics prone to ulcers? BUT, shouldnt diabetics not eat sweet food? I admit, I know nothing about diabetes.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Definitely cans of Coke, I can make out the curls of the logo really clearly. The chap at the till also scans one and takes the rest of the cans out without scanning, suggesting they were all the same and he adjusted the quantity on the total.

There's also some milk in the basket and a multibag of Skips (prawn cocktail flavour crisps). On the counter are a packaged sandwich, a packaged bap or roll of some kind, and what looks like the branding for Aero Bubbles (chocolate).

In the actual footage I can also see Starburst, Maoam, and what looks like blocks of cake wrapped in clear plastic.

There's nothing substantial here. I would have bought less than this for a sleepover when I was twelve. It's pure empty nutrition and it's definitely not cost-effective either.

Ah, my apologies. I guess it was an automatic assumption my mind made - camping out, tinned soup or tinned beans / spag hoops etc.

These two weren't eating well hey? Not only not nutritious and laden with sugar but also just generally not very filling. Also, the weight of cans of cola, such a waste of carrying anything heavy.

 

[Skigh]

come to think of it, so does the foot problem. Aren't diabetics prone to ulcers? BUT, shouldnt diabetics not eat sweet food? I admit, I know nothing about diabetes.

If he had diabetes and had a serious foot injury I think he would be sent straight to hospital for check ups immediately after being apprehended.

 

[Pidgy]

Someone upthread pondered on the possibility of MG having a medical condition. I'm wondering if he could be diabetic?

All the sweets and fizzy drink, and the bags on the feet, coupled with using a stick to walk makes me think its a possibility.

Also asking the police to leave him alone and let him eat when they were arrested fits.

Good thinking. I was thinking the plastic bags on the feet could have been rational rather than crazy, and gangrene can have a strong odour too. Diabetes certainly fits.

 

[Alyce]

Video at the link


Jurors have been shown dramatic video of the moment fugitive aristocrat Constance Marten was arrested in the street

https://www.itv.com/news/meridian/2024-02-06/constance-marten-asked-where-is-your-child-in-dramatic-arrest-video

 

[Rolypolyoly]

come to think of it, so does the foot problem. Aren't diabetics prone to ulcers? BUT, shouldnt diabetics not eat sweet food? I admit, I know nothing about diabetes.

That's what I was thinking re the bags.

Diabetics shouldn't eat a lot of sugar, but sweets and fizzy drinks can stave off a hypo in an emergency, and a diabetic living like they were with very little food is extremely dangerous.

If he was type 1 I would expect they would have mentioned in the alerts that he was without important medication, unless he had a supply of insulin on him. I would think it would be very hard to calculate the correct dose with their lack of food though.

Maybe someone with firsthand knowledge might be able to chime in here.

My husband's Grandfather was type 2 and controlled by diet, but he had constant open sores on his feet and even lost a toe. He eventually needed insulin too but not for many years.

 

[Rolypolyoly]

If he had diabetes and had a serious foot injury I think he would be sent straight to hospital for check ups immediately after being apprehended.

I would think so too if it was serious, but if not obvious straight away I would think they would have been seen by the duty Dr at the station and go from there.

 

[pokerowan]

Ah, my apologies. I guess it was an automatic assumption my mind made - camping out, tinned soup or tinned beans / spag hoops etc.

These two weren't eating well hey? Not only not nutritious and laden with sugar but also just generally not very filling. Also, the weight of cans of cola, such a waste of carrying anything heavy.

No need to apologise! You assumed the sensible option!

 

[Zuleika]

Any sympathetic feelings I had are quickly diminishing in the face of reading about today in court.Goodness only knows how the defence are going to deal with this .

 

[Pidgy]

She was arrested for child neglect and for concealment of the birth of a child on 4 January 2023. (This is what the arresting officer told her on camera.) That's the day before the car fire.

I am tending to believe the defence regarding the dates of both birth and death.

This is getting interesting from a legal point of view. The prosecution is saying we have all this circumstantial evidence that you committed manslaughter but no direct evidence, and we don't know the physical cause of death but the circumstantial evidence proves you were culpable, and we don't believe what you say about the dates of birth and death - you may or may not be telling the truth, but you're not right when you say the baby was well cared for (which essentially rests IMO on the idea that they are either liars or nutters, or both, and they may not be either of those two things).

...And the defence...well I would say the state of the cottage in Northumbria and the records of sightings (definitely with the baby, and either without the baby or not definitely with the baby) tend to support the defence on the two dates. They can't prove the baby was well cared for, but they don't have to.

So...will the prosecution accept the two dates, or will they say to the jury that the crown is keeping to what it said in its opening speech, which is that what the defendants say about that may or may not be true.

This case may be becoming less easy to prosecute. The crown case is looking increasingly narrative-light.

If they give evidence, the prosecuting counsel may need to be good at thinking on his feet. (What's Tom Little's rep in the area of cross-examination?)

Quite possible that one will give evidence and one won't.

 

[Lolabear]

Any sympathetic feelings I had are quickly diminishing in the face of reading about today in court.Goodness only knows how the defence are going to deal with this .

Same. More concerned about food and each other than of the baby. Despicable human beings the pair of them

 

[Cardgame]

She was arrested for child neglect and for concealment of the birth of a child on 4 January 2023. (This is what the arresting officer told her on camera.) That's the day before the car fire.

I am tending to believe the defence regarding the dates of both birth and death.

I think the question we still don't have an answer to, but hopefully will, is if he baby had died in early January as CM claimed, then why when they found her body on 1st March do they believe she had only been dead for a few weeks.

January to March feels like a REALLY long time IMO.

It's more than a months difference, which you'd think would be significant in terms of awful things we don't really want to get into.

 

[Telltale]

They probably weren't great at living off-grid. A big bag of porridge oats, and sort out a water supply, and you can live in the woods for a month, completely off-camera. Powdered milk an optional extra.

I hope we will find out the dates of their visits to the foodbank.

That's the thing that kinda confuses me though, because from social services reports, they've lived in tents and caravans and such before. Hell they've done it with a newborn baby before. That's how she got at least one kid taken off her.

You'd think they would have picked up a bit of experience on living and feeding themselves outdoors and without the usual facilities.