UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #5

[Kye Zeeb]

That cucumber seems to be in remarkably good condition if it was bought on 12 January and found seven weeks later on 1 March.

Post above SBM^^. I was confused by the photos in the DM of "Lidl bag contents" as this seems to differ from the description given of the bag contents as discovered by police. I can only assume that the original contents of the Lidl bag at the time of purchase have been "reconstructed" by the purchase and photography of items on a receipt found at the scene, or in the possession of CM/MG. All MOO of course.

 

[Willowy]

That cucumber seems to be in remarkably good condition if it was bought on 12 January and found seven weeks later on 1 March.

It's not clear in that Mail article (classic Mail) but I believe all those food items pictured were actually what CM & MG were carrying with them when they were arrested. (All in a different Lidl bag to which Victoria's body was found). It's mentioned in other articles and the Trial podcast. Note the open loaf of bread and turkey/chicken slices - adds up because MG was trying to make/eat a sandwich in the bodycam footage.

 

[Willowy]

I think they are incense sticks, yes.

Also nice find. What an intriguing purchase.

 

[Skigh]

Also nice find. What an intriguing purchase.

I think the incense sticks were bought to try and mask the smell in the shed.

 

[Rolypolyoly]

I think the incense sticks were bought to try and mask the smell in the shed.

Yep, who wants to be put off their turkey sandwich by the smells of their dead baby?

 

[ShadowPuppet]

I think the incense sticks were bought to try and mask the smell in the shed.

Just to play devils advocate, it could also have been a home from home thing. Plenty of people use smells to feel ‘at home’ and it may have been something comforting. People who travel often stick them in mud or sand to burn down.

Still, I would have thought CM and MG would be less likely to use them tbh because it’s still an unusual smell for a passerby to smell.

 

[Yellowbelly]

I like the expression you used: evidence of care. It really sums it up.

What this trial is proving is that there is no evidence of care. It is very sad.

This is a key point, actually. I said earlier in this thread that I thought that Manslaughter by G.N. was going to be a tough ask for the prosecution to prove beyond all reasonable doubt as they couldn't show how the baby died. Now that we know that they basically threw their daughter out with the rubbish and that there's little or no evidence of them caring for her in life or in death, I'm not so sure. I imagine this is going to be the main thrust of the prosecution argument.

If we're disgusted having only seen the sanitised pictures, imagine what the jury are thinking having seen the unedited version.

 

[Twittens]

(snipped and bold for focus)

In a police interview played in court, Ms Marten said she had given birth in Cumbria on Christmas Eve, 2022, and the baby had died in the Harwich area, in Essex, around Jan 8, 2023.

She wept and was handed tissues in court, as she watched the footage of herself.

[…]

Constance Marten sobs over video of herself telling police that baby in Lidl bag is her daughter

Officers discovered infant's remains after pulling rubbish from carrier found in allotment shed

www.telegraph.co.uk

Wait, what?! That can't be right, because we all saw the CCTV footage of a live baby in the kebab shop in London on 7 January, which was after they left Harwich.

I can see her being confused about the date but not about what order they travelled from Bolton to Harwich to London to Newhaven, nor about where she was when her newborn baby supposedly died in her arms.

Slip of the tongue? Reporting error? Misdirection?


Kebab shop footage: Baby Victoria seen on CCTV footage for first time before her death

 

[Smccat]

I think the incense sticks were bought to try and mask the smell in the shed.

I don't disagree. Plus, incense is also used as part of religious worship and meditation practice. Though in the case of the latter I don't know how much peace or clarity of mind CM would have had for getting into the zone.

 

[Alyce]

Wait, what?! That can't be right, because we all saw the CCTV footage of a live baby in the kebab shop in London on 7 January, which was after they left Harwich.

I can see her being confused about the date but not about what order they travelled from Bolton to Harwich to London to Newhaven, nor about where she was when her newborn baby supposedly died in her arms.

Slip of the tongue? Reporting error? Misdirection?


Kebab shop footage: Baby Victoria seen on CCTV footage for first time before her death

This is part of the transcript from one of the Podcasts - a journalist who was in court and is reporting exactly what was said by Tom Little in his opening address.
The date given here for Victoria's death is January 11



But then Mr Little said her version of what happened to Victoria changed. At first. She claimed to police that she died around three days after that car exploded in flames on the M 61 up in Bolton...........

This then changed, though, so that it was between five and seven days later.
She initially said the baby died in Harwich. Then she changed it to New Haven, Mr Little said.
Eventually, police took Constance Martin through the dates of the car explosion and the hotel stays. And at this point she settled on a date of January 11th as the date of Victoria's death

https://podcasts.musixmatch.com/podcast/the-trial-01gw40zm7r6hc08w7jepkajncm/episode/constance-marten-and-mark-gordon-constance-martens-01hn3pk2fympyrwv7qtpxtav77

 

[Pidgy]

This is part of the transcript from one of the Podcasts - a journalist who was in court and is reporting exactly what was said by Tom Little in his opening address.
The date given here for Victoria's death is January 11



But then Mr Little said her version of what happened to Victoria changed. At first. She claimed to police that she died around three days after that car exploded in flames on the M 61 up in Bolton...........

This then changed, though, so that it was between five and seven days later.
She initially said the baby died in Harwich. Then she changed it to New Haven, Mr Little said.
Eventually, police took Constance Martin through the dates of the car explosion and the hotel stays. And at this point she settled on a date of January 11th as the date of Victoria's death

https://podcasts.musixmatch.com/podcast/the-trial-01gw40zm7r6hc08w7jepkajncm/episode/constance-marten-and-mark-gordon-constance-martens-01hn3pk2fympyrwv7qtpxtav77

It would be clearer if we had the transcript of the interview. The jury will have access to both transcript and video.

"Initially", "change it", "at this point", "settled on" are all spin phrases to make it sound as if she was lying. Sounds more likely to be a slip of the tongue to me. Perhaps the interview went like this:

Police: "Where were you when Victoria died?"
CM: "Er...Harwich..."
Police [looks through papers]. "You say Harwich. What day was it? So you are saying this was when Victoria died? Can you tell me more?"
CM: "No, it wasn't Harwich. I meant Newhaven. We left Harwich and then..."

That is totally made up, but it's consistent both with the prosecution opening speech and with what happens in normal conversations or interviews - a person not having the chance to correct themselves right away because the other person has been speaking.

If I were prosecuting, I probably wouldn't try to build much on such a minor error, unless maybe they've got other evidence suggesting she lies her head off.

Regarding date of death, I wasn't wholly convinced by reports of the baby crying in the woods evidence either. Perhaps Victoria died after a not very long time in the plastic bag. Putting a baby in a plastic bag is asking for trouble, to put it mildly. Perhaps they put her in the bag, then by some amazing good fortune she was actually still OK after half an hour, and so they take her out, but the next time they decide to put her in the bag they think "This seems like a sensible way to carry her. No surprise that the squares haven't thought of it. She's been fine, so a few things put on top of her won't make any difference" - and then the next thing they know, she's dead.

^ All complete speculation.

 

[wowiezowie]

I'm struggling to believe if Victoria's body had not been found, that CM and MG would ever have divulged where she was and what happened.

 

[Smccat]

I'm struggling to believe if Victoria's body had not been found, that CM and MG would ever have divulged where she was and what happened.

Yes I agree. When the police said if she did not want to say where she was but asked if she would instead circle it on a map and she wouldn't.

 

[rockthecasbah]

It's not clear in that Mail article (classic Mail) but I believe all those food items pictured were actually what CM & MG were carrying with them when they were arrested. (All in a different Lidl bag to which Victoria's body was found). It's mentioned in other articles and the Trial podcast. Note the open loaf of bread and turkey/chicken slices - adds up because MG was trying to make/eat a sandwich in the bodycam footage.

Agree. There's 2 blue plastic bags in the top photo

 

[rockthecasbah]

Still, I would have thought CM and MG would be less likely to use them tbh because it’s still an unusual smell for a passerby to smell.

Agree. If someone on the allotments smelled incense, they'd know there was definitely somebody nearby and probably not someone who was gardening. I imagine they hid when any allotment people were about

 

[Smccat]

The more that is revealed, the more convinced that neither CM nor MG had any coherent thoughts or plans about anything. Buy it, steal it, lie about it, whatever. They 100% ok with living like rodents with a human baby despite having access to funds to live in baby-safe environment.
<modsnip - sub judice> They both need to be 100% kept out of the community forever. Don’t wish to see CM posh privilege getting her a soft option. She is a murderer.

No more pro creating also please !

 

[Schlitze]

To give you an idea of the geography the red circle is where they were arrested and the white circle is the shed where they were headed. You can see they took quite a roundabout way of getting there from the shops, going through the woods in a semi circle, maybe this was the most inconspicuous route or maybe this was the easiest access to the allotment.


The police did quite an incredible job of finding the body as quickly as they did. Needle in a haystack. The whole area is a maze of sheds and earth. That is the lower section of Roe allotments, there is a much bigger area further up which is where I always assumed the baby was found until yesterday.

 

[Cardgame]

It would be clearer if we had the transcript of the interview. The jury will have access to both transcript and video.

"Initially", "change it", "at this point", "settled on" are all spin phrases to make it sound as if she was lying. Sounds more likely to be a slip of the tongue to me. Perhaps the interview went like this:

Police: "Where were you when Victoria died?"
CM: "Er...Harwich..."
Police [looks through papers]. "You say Harwich. What day was it? So you are saying this was when Victoria died? Can you tell me more?"
CM: "No, it wasn't Harwich. I meant Newhaven. We left Harwich and then..."

That is totally made up, but it's consistent both with the prosecution opening speech and with what happens in normal conversations or interviews - a person not having the chance to correct themselves right away because the other person has been speaking.

If I were prosecuting, I probably wouldn't try to build much on such a minor error, unless maybe they've got other evidence suggesting she lies her head off.

Regarding date of death, I wasn't wholly convinced by reports of the baby crying in the woods evidence either. Perhaps Victoria died after a not very long time in the plastic bag. Putting a baby in a plastic bag is asking for trouble, to put it mildly. Perhaps they put her in the bag, then by some amazing good fortune she was actually still OK after half an hour, and so they take her out, but the next time they decide to put her in the bag they think "This seems like a sensible way to carry her. No surprise that the squares haven't thought of it. She's been fine, so a few things put on top of her won't make any difference" - and then the next thing they know, she's dead.

^ All complete speculation.

They had pages of the newspaper from what was supposedly *the following day* after the baby died.

Are we to believe that the day her baby died was *so insignificant to her* that the very next day, when she bought a newspaper*, she didn't even *glance* at the date?

She didn't care how many days her baby lived?

She wasn't even interested?

That date should have been burned in her memory for all eternity.

*A newspaper they kept and apparently carried around alongside her body.

JMO.

 

[Pidgy]

To give you an idea of the geography the red circle is where they were arrested and the white circle is the shed where they were headed. You can see they took quite a roundabout way of getting there from the shops, going through the woods in a semi circle, maybe this was the most inconspicuous route or maybe this was the easiest access to the allotment.
View attachment 483459
View attachment 483461
The police did quite an incredible job of finding the body as quickly as they did. Needle in a haystack. The whole area is a maze of sheds and earth. That is the lower section of Roe allotments, there is a much bigger area further up which is where I always assumed the baby was found until yesterday.

We don't know they were headed for the shed or that they ever spent a night in it.

Out of interest, how far is the shed from the foodbank? I'm so curious about their lifestyle and movements during the month before they were arrested. I have a sneaking suspicion that they may not have been out of all contact with everyone who'd ever known them.

 

[Leannaf2721]

Wait, what?! That can't be right, because we all saw the CCTV footage of a live baby in the kebab shop in London on 7 January, which was after they left Harwich.

I can see her being confused about the date but not about what order they travelled from Bolton to Harwich to London to Newhaven, nor about where she was when her newborn baby supposedly died in her arms.

Slip of the tongue? Reporting error? Misdirection?


Kebab shop footage: Baby Victoria seen on CCTV footage for first time before her death

Did they dump the pram on the 8th? I was wondering if she had passed away some time from kebab shop to the dumping of the pram as that is when she was moved to the bag. But I can’t exactly remember the full time line so maybe it would not be possible for this scenario