UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon charged, Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #5

[ShadowPuppet]

We don't know they were headed for the shed or that they ever spent a night in it.

Out of interest, how far is the shed from the foodbank? I'm so curious about their lifestyle and movements during the month before they were arrested. I have a sneaking suspicion that they may not have been out of all contact with everyone who'd ever known them.

I think there’s a food bank at St Richards Church about a mile away in Beale Crescent. Google suggests it’s a 36 minute walk, but if MG was struggling could have taken longer.

@Pidgy, was it you who suggested about MG and alcohol issues?

Just thinking about the witness who said he walked into the traffic on the road at the time of the car fire. I wonder if that was shock or something else? It’s quite weird to walk into a busy motorway rather than away onto the hard shoulder.

JMO, but I do think you could be right about not being out of contact with everyone. It’s been hard to gage whether they had many real relationships left. Obviously you might have more understanding about that, having known one of them, but i feel like the media have suggested they don’t and are very insular (but that CM did, we don’t know about MG much bar his criminal history). Equally, their lifestyle suggests it would have been tricky to keep up with them, but I think it makes much more sense that some others had (at least) sporadic contact.

 

[rockthecasbah]

To give you an idea of the geography the red circle is where they were arrested and the white circle is the shed where they were headed. You can see they took quite a roundabout way of getting there from the shops, going through the woods in a semi circle, maybe this was the most inconspicuous route or maybe this was the easiest access to the allotment.
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The police did quite an incredible job of finding the body as quickly as they did. Needle in a haystack. The whole area is a maze of sheds and earth. That is the lower section of Roe allotments, there is a much bigger area further up which is where I always assumed the baby was found until yesterday.

A lot of allotments have locked gates because of vandalism so I guess they went round to bypass that

 

[Smccat]

Was the incense found in a bag of theirs or just in the shed? Could have belonged to the owner who likes to go down, chill etc. but wasn’t there over winter.

 

[Nikynoo]

I think there’s a food bank at St Richards Church about a mile away in Beale Crescent. Google suggests it’s a 36 minute walk, but if MG was struggling could have taken longer.

@Pidgy, was it you who suggested about MG and alcohol issues?

Just thinking about the witness who said he walked into the traffic on the road at the time of the car fire. I wonder if that was shock or something else? It’s quite weird to walk into a busy motorway rather than away onto the hard shoulder.

JMO, but I do think you could be right about not being out of contact with everyone. It’s been hard to gage whether they had many real relationships left. Obviously you might have more understanding about that, having known one of them, but i feel like the media have suggested they don’t and are very insular (but that CM did, we don’t know about MG much bar his criminal history). Equally, their lifestyle suggests it would have been tricky to keep up with them, but I think it makes much more sense that some others had (at least) sporadic contact.

I think they had contact with someone because the taxi driver heard her phone ping and then she requested a change in destination. I’m wondering whether they were initially helped (perhaps by an anti SS organisation), but once they hit the headlines, that help was withdrawn.

 

[Skigh]

I think they had contact with someone because the taxi driver heard her phone ping and then she requested a change in destination. I’m wondering whether they were initially helped (perhaps by an anti SS organisation), but once they hit the headlines, that help was withdrawn.

Or they lost money in the car fire so were unable to pay someone for help.

 

[dotr]

<modsnip - quoted post was removed>

Constance Marten with 'dead' baby in sling eight days before arrest

Constance Marten, 36, (pictured) was allegedly seen in a Brighton park with her lifeless baby in a sling eight days she was caught by police.

www.dailymail.co.uk

'A taxi driver who Constance Marten (pictured) paid £475 for a three-hour trip has said he thought he heard a cat 'meowing' in his cab before he realised the aristocrat and her partner had a baby with them'

 

[Zuleika]

I think they had contact with someone because the taxi driver heard her phone ping and then she requested a change in destination. I’m wondering whether they were initially helped (perhaps by an anti SS organisation), but once they hit the headlines, that help was withdrawn.

This suggestion re the phone ping was responded to upthread .A possibility
that it was a return call from premises CM had contacted re accomodation she had enquired about earlier .

 

[ShadowPuppet]

I think they had contact with someone because the taxi driver heard her phone ping and then she requested a change in destination. I’m wondering whether they were initially helped (perhaps by an anti SS organisation), but once they hit the headlines, that help was withdrawn.

I’m not sure. Imo, I think contact would have likely been a person or persons known to them, rather than a group. They appear to me to be very ‘in their own existence’. There’s a lot of reaffirming things together eg. CM blowing kisses in court, MG saying ‘Be good’. JMO but I think they seem as if they wouldn’t really trust anyone and the only people who might be used to create situations that they wanted/required were people whom they could predict the interactions with (at least roughly).

I could be totally wrong, of course, but to me, they could still have tried to go through with a plan with a group helping them to a ‘safe’ European country after everything. I know CM’s passport was lost during the car fire, but I didn’t think MG had one? So (if that’s true) either it already required extra documents (ID) or hiding to cross borders, or it wasn’t their plan at all. Also, they have stated they were both aware of the news and it frightened them into not coming forward - but also weren’t aware (or at least not of being on national television) and therefore had no idea they needed to state names when arrested. I’d assume they knew border control would be looking out for them, if they knew they were in the news. Equally, they had form for the environment they chose to live in and chose that again - which suggests it may just have been their personal choice when they couldn’t access housing. They appeared to be ‘hiding’ from SS, but the way they did it wasn’t new.

I would assume that - as is the case in most families - as the years go on (and more children are removed and support, for many complex reasons, isn’t working), the issues get bigger and more complex. Few people flee SS to other countries and few parents recognise the seriousness of their own situation until something awful happens - sometimes not even then. It’s really hard to get parents to see how damaging certain behaviours can be and understand their own difficulties, many just assume their baby can slot into that. That’s the issue in many families, they simply can’t understand the entirety of the issues that prevent them from parenting safely (even after children are removed). Equally, they become more chaotic, so organising something like that becomes difficult. Whether it’s that way for CM and MG I don’t know, but (JMOO) there’s certainly a lack of recognition for both the loss of their baby and why anyone appeared worried in the first place (and when they were then arrested). There could be many reasons for that, but IMO the majority of parents would be emotional when questioned repeatedly about their dead tiny baby’s whereabouts.

MOO, but I’m not convinced their absolute focus was keeping Victoria to parent her and care for her (in whatever way they understood that was), as such, so I’m also not convinced they’d have curated a plan to ensure the best chance of seeing that through.

 

[Telltale]

MOO, but I’m not convinced their absolute focus was keeping Victoria to parent her and care for her (in whatever way they understood that was), as such, so I’m also not convinced they’d have curated a plan to ensure the best chance of seeing that through.

What do you think their driving motivation was if not to raise Victoria?

 

[ShadowPuppet]

What do you think their driving motivation was if not to raise Victoria?

I think it was likely to be complex. I’m not 100% really, I don’t feel I know enough about them yet, but (jmo) maybe a mixture of wanting to hold onto power by living their own style of life, disregarding systems and authorities while being driven by narcissistic desires and some (currently not that clear) beliefs that seem to form some core in their relationship.

I think Victoria enters these motivations and beliefs as a child who belongs to them, not as a child who they are viscerally desperate to parent. (Obviously, I could be wrong though and, in many ways, I hope I am as that would have meant something a little better for Victoria’s short life.)

 

[rightsaidfred]

I know CM’s passport was lost during the car fire, but I didn’t think MG had one? So (if that’s true) either it already required extra documents (ID) or hiding to cross borders,

Easy enough way to do it would be to get the ferry to Northern Ireland, then drive across the border into Republic of Ireland.

You just need photo ID, not a passport

Passport & ID FAQs | Irish Ferries

www.irishferries.com

RoI is generally perceived to be less likely to remove children than the UK

 

[ShadowPuppet]

Easy enough way to do it would be to get the ferry to Northern Ireland, then drive across the border into Republic of Ireland.

You just need photo ID, not a passport

Passport & ID FAQs | Irish Ferries

www.irishferries.com

RoI is generally perceived to be less likely to remove children than the UK

Yes, that’s what I mean, they’d need other documents (ID). Most people only really have a passport or drivers license, so it would tend to be one of those. They could have both had drivers licenses on them, but I don’t think that’s been confirmed as yet?

Edited to add: Although, thinking about it, MG must have had one as he was driving! Sorry, foggy brain today!

 

[Alyce]

Yes, that’s what I mean, they’d need other documents (ID). Most people only really have a passport or drivers license, so it would tend to be one of those. They could have both had drivers licenses on them, but I don’t think that’s been confirmed as yet?

Edited to add: Although, thinking about it, MG must have had one as he was driving! Sorry, foggy brain today!

Just editing my previous post - these two reports state that MG was the driver

The person who got out of the driver's side went to the rear of the vehicle, opened the boot of the car and was frantically trying to get things out of the car.

The person then came towards me and stood to my right as I was looking at the car.
I then started to record the fire on my mobile phone, and the first response from the gentleman was to ask me Am I filming that?

https://podcasts.musixmatch.com/podcast/the-trial-01gw40zm7r6hc08w7jepkajncm/episode/constance-marten-and-mark-gordon-somethings-not-right-01hndshe4838eawv9y9qm4ymx0

Mr Hudson said he saw a woman get out of the passenger’s side of the car and run past him on the hard shoulder, while the male driver "frantically" pulled items out of the burning vehicle.

'I could have saved baby of runaway aristocrat Constance Marten' - motorist

Ken Hudson said he is "cut up" by the thought he could have saved Constance Marten's baby's life

www.standard.co.uk

 

[Rolypolyoly]

Yes, that’s what I mean, they’d need other documents (ID). Most people only really have a passport or drivers license, so it would tend to be one of those. They could have both had drivers licenses on them, but I don’t think that’s been confirmed as yet?

Edited to add: Although, thinking about it, MG must have had one as he was driving! Sorry, foggy brain today!

Not necessarily. I tend to imagine she did the driving generally, but as she had just given birth and was likely holding Victoria in the car as there was no mention of a car seat, I think maybe he did it. I don't think that necessarily means he has a licence though.
I've posted about him not having a licence before, it just doesn't fit with my impression of him but that's purely speculation on my part.

 

[ShadowPuppet]

Good thought, @Rolypolyoly, I’d just thought driving without a license would been mentioned, but perhaps not.

 

[Cardgame]

I checked to see where the info came from that MG doesn't have a passport and have only found this:

"A source close to Ms Marten has told The Independent that Gordon does not have a passport so is unlikely to have left the country."

This IMO is not a reliable source.

CM may have told people MG didn't have a passport because she didn't want to reveal the real reason he couldn't go abroad was because he had to check in with police and ask for permission to travel:

"Being on the SOR does not prevent you from travelling abroad, unless you are also subject to a Sexual Harm Prevention Order that includes a foreign travel restriction. However, while you are on the SOR you must notify the police of any intention to travel abroad. The police will make a decision about whether they feel it is necessary to inform the country to which you intend to travel about any risks you may pose."

Just floating other possibilities. IMO the photo of him in media looks very much like hers, ie a standard no smiling passport photo.

*Edited because I hit send too soon before posting that info from the sex offenders advice website.

 

[Alyce]

Just editing my previous post - these two reports state that MG was the driver

The person who got out of the driver's side went to the rear of the vehicle, opened the boot of the car and was frantically trying to get things out of the car.

The person then came towards me and stood to my right as I was looking at the car.
I then started to record the fire on my mobile phone, and the first response from the gentleman was to ask me Am I filming that?

https://podcasts.musixmatch.com/podcast/the-trial-01gw40zm7r6hc08w7jepkajncm/episode/constance-marten-and-mark-gordon-somethings-not-right-01hndshe4838eawv9y9qm4ymx0

Mr Hudson said he saw a woman get out of the passenger’s side of the car and run past him on the hard shoulder, while the male driver "frantically" pulled items out of the burning vehicle.

'I could have saved baby of runaway aristocrat Constance Marten' - motorist

Ken Hudson said he is "cut up" by the thought he could have saved Constance Marten's baby's life

www.standard.co.uk

And here's the alternative version about who was driving on January 5 when the car broke down on the M61.

This information was stated by CM during an interview with the police and the video of this interview was shown in Court last week.



So once police had found the body of Victoria they then interviewed Constance Martin again.
This interview took place at Worthing Police Station and it lasted for around 90 minutes.
It was conducted by two detectives with DC Paul Garvey asking the questions.

The footage of this interview was shown to the jury.

She said that at the time she had been driving and Mark Gordon had been in the back with Baby Victoria.

When they fled the car, she said, went up in flames because she had left her handbag in the front seat.
She claimed Mark Gordon went back to try to retrieve as much as possible from the car while she stayed with the baby. She was asked what she left in the car and said that she had left a placenta in her bag.

https://podcasts.musixmatch.com/podcast/the-trial-01gw40zm7r6hc08w7jepkajncm/episode/constance-marten-and-mark-gordon-the-body-in-the-shed-01hpsgnp58bc5d03wr9j8gf4e0

 

[Obergine]

Interesting. All the reports on the placenta said it was found in the back seat, but then I note the media have a habit of 'reading and reporting' between the lines. I am inclined to believe they would keep a placenta to bury, but then why not do it straight away? Unchilled placenta probably reeks after a few days.

 

[ShadowPuppet]

Is anyone listening to The Trial podcast (DM - sorry, detest the Daily Mail generally, but podcast is interesting)? Anyone else think MG refusal to be interviewed in the seat is interesting?

JMOO, (I know I mentioned last time about the food/hunger issue, so apologies if repetitive) it seems in every interview so far he seems to demonstrate this need to control it, usually picking something to say repeatedly that relates to a minor discomfort he experiences at the time, which is blown into the only issue he will discuss in utter circles. (Aside, but very like someone with NPD I’ve known.) Also, the fixating on the treating him like ‘a dog’ idea, asking his solicitor to respond for him and trying to switch things back on the interviewer (‘how can the nurse know how much pain I feel etc. a doctor would understand’) are just quite strong unusual behaviours. I wasn’t expecting the feeling of playing the victim to come across quite as strongly as it has for me so far.

 

[dotr]

In Court - The Trial of Constance Marten and Mark Gordon - The Search - BBC Sounds

Constance Marten and Mark Gordon are on trial at the Old Bailey over their baby's death.

www.bbc.co.uk

'16 Feb 2024
Available for over a year
Join us at the Old Bailey to follow the trial of Constance Marten, from Dorset, and Mark Gordon, from London, who are charged with causing the death of their new-born child after a body was found in a shed on an allotment near Brighton in March 2023 – both Ms Marten and Mr Gordon deny the charges against them.In this episode we hear how police discovered the body of baby Victoria and what the defendants said in their interviews with detectives afterwards.Plus, we are joined by another expert guest, former senior investigating officer Colin Sutton who used to run London Metropolitan Police's murder squad.'