UK - Libby Squire, 21, last seen outside Welly club, Hull, 31 Jan 2019 #21

[Offaly]

A thank you from me too. Just wondering if you could try running it tomorrow carrying a body!!

Do you know, I was just thinking something along those lines! I was going to say that I'm surprised that a few locals on here haven't got together to act out the different scenarios to get an idea of time possibilities. Even though the photos etc are great, it still doesn't replace actually seeing it in real life and the various routes/terrain etc.

 

[Offaly]

Excellent work, thanks for your efforts.
For me that slope is far too steep (even if in a less slippery state) for someone who was having difficulty staying on their feet, or alternatively carrying approx 9/10 stones of weight, to climb easily within the time scales given, particularly when thinking of what else needed to happen. (Sorry I'm aware how awful that sounds, I'm trying to stay factual)
This being the quickest route and via the boat house taking longer this doesn't for me deal with any of the timing issues in fact makes it seem less possible.

She ended up in there somehow though - what other alternatives are there I wonder?

 

[Corneileus]

Ok coming to final two pictures..this is the closest house to the fishing pond, on the park itself. The entrance to the house as you can see is along the layby where pawel says he parked up and near the gates to the park. I have seen on occasions several cars parked on the drive. I did not want to start taking pictures of someones house so i took a picture if the trail and the house happenned to be in the photo. i did not take any more pictures of that

 

[Corneileus]

She ended up in there somehow though - what other alternatives are there I wonder?

thankyou very much to all for having me here, stumbled here by chance.

 

[Offaly]

What is the current temperature in Hull compared to 2 years ago? My weather app states 3 degrees Celsius now. I think that is similar to when Libby disappeared. But I have to convert to Celsius since I am in the states so could be confused!!

It is currently (midnight) 4 degrees celsius in Hull.

 

[Jarvis1969]

Just thinking, if he has been fiddling with himself before & in the car when he drives, it may only take him seconds when he rapes her, meaning plenty time to kill Libby and dispose of her body?

 

[Offaly]

Apologies, read that wrong

second visit was

12.11 am to 12.19 am




Final visit was

2.25 to 2.29 am

Such tight timelines

 

[ChiCubs2016]

So approximately 39 degrees Fahrenheit. I needed to covert to get an idea. So not low enough to freeze standing water.

 

[TreiseOg]

I'm finding everyone's thoughts on the timings really interesting.

I can't help thinking about the purpose of those second and third visits - not sure about the duration of the third, but what would be the purpose given the short duration of the second?

And I also can't help thinking, in the event that, say, I had been involved in an altercation and I knew that someone had entered the river as a result of my actions (whatever the nature of those actions); one purpose of returning might be to check whether they were still visible anywhere in the water or if they'd definitely gone?

Just my humble speculative opinion.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Ok coming to final two pictures..this is the closest house to the fishing pond, on the park itself. The entrance to the house as you can see is along the layby where pawel says he parked up and near the gates to the park. I have seen on occasions several cars parked on the drive. I did not want to start taking pictures of someones house so i took a picture if the trail and the house happenned to be in the photo. i did not take any more pictures of that

Dammit. I was hoping the next photo was gonna be the view from the witness’s bedroom window.

Back you go... things you need: your camera, a stopwatch, a tape measure, and a body. Also take your magnifying glass and Websleuths lanyard, just in case.

 

[tigerowl]

I'm local and I know ORPF. I really cannot see that he could do it in that time as I have previously mentioned in that thread. I note Corneileus has concerns about the timeline too. I'm really interested in what other locals who actually know the park think specifically on the timeline.

Please note - I think he is responsible for her dying by taking advantage of her and taking her there in the first place but I just can't get with the fact that he managed to get her in the river in that time.

 

[Vera_dci]

@TreiseOg : What's your opinion on where he could have possibly placed libby in the water which enabled her to travel further along the river?

 

[Jarvis1969]

Please note - I think he is responsible for her dying by taking advantage of her and taking her there in the first place but I just can't get with the fact that he managed to get her in the river in that time.[/QUOTE]

How do you think she got in the river? I dont think she stumbled into it, I think he either did it after the rape or when he returned later on that night & that is why he felt the need to masturbate in the street later that night, I think that may be when he moved her body, I hate speaking this way, as I have a daughter of a similar age but I think he is 100% guilty and he needs to be held responsible for what he did that night. If it wasnt Libby it would have been someone else, he was intent on offending that night, another thing which others have commented on, he was the only one, despite English not being his first language, able to understand her that night, totally lying

 

[Cherwell]

I'm finding everyone's thoughts on the timings really interesting.
I can't help thinking about the purpose of those second and third visits - not sure about the duration of the third, but what would be the purpose given the short duration of the second?

Just to clarify - the second visit was the one with Libby around midnight.
The four-minute visit was the third.
He had also been there earlier, before the encounter with Libby.

 

[Jarvis1969]

Just to clarify - the second visit was the one with Libby around midnight.
The four-minute visit was the third.
He had also been there earlier, before the encounter with Libby.

He was intent on offending that night and I think he was checking out the best places to do it, if it wasnt Libby it would have been another girl, he had made his mind up. A new Father in & out his house all night where did he say he was going? Surely his wife wanted his support having 2 very young children in the house, not the family man he wants us to think he is!

 

[Corneileus]

so turning around 180 degrees we see the other closest set of houses after the other house namely the lodge which is actually on the park itself. These houses i think are too far away for screams to be heard, there are some houses on the other side near the entrance to the layby, they are about maybe a little closer but i wasnt to taking photos of peoples houses so i did not pursue. I think if there were screams from the top left corner of the pond, the Lodge residents may have heard the screams, its possible but there is a lot of woodland, the other houses may have heard the screams i dont know and i dont know any one who has tested it yet and it would need to be done from various positions throughout the park.

Pawel did not care where he pleasured himself - or did he, was there an importance in fear in the thrill? But he did always run away. Maybe he got fed up of running away and this time he would not run. If pawel made the distance with libby - I suggest he used the steeper but closer slope, strangled her again on that slope and chose an area to throw her in atop. I am 100 percent cast iron guaranteeing that using the steeper muddier slope (frozen over for extra grip) would be a lot faster than using the route passed the boathouse and the screams might have seemed from the same area... a little bit of extra induced power, up the slope. easy street for pawel from there. I promise from that point no longer than 45 seconds tops he could sprint but that does mean sprint, back close to the houses which is where he slowed down but left in hurry and was seen, which is said to be a possibility. you would not have to be much more than average fitness for his age to accomplish this.

however needs checking out in the darkness aswell. a fast sprint may also suggest a tumble, more grass stains.


In saying that,

 

[porkypies]

I feel sorry for the scream witnesses - I think they are going to play a very big part in the murder (put in river) charge. They must feel very unnerved and pressured knowing that what they say could possibly sway a jury member to convict of murder or not.

How does anyone know who was doing the screaming?

 

[TreiseOg]

@TreiseOg : What's your opinion on where he could have possibly placed libby in the water which enabled her to travel further along the river?

If, and it's a big 'if' given the timing issue, he caused her to enter the water, the question wouldn't really be so much about where as when.

In any tidal river, the flow can be darn strong (deceptive when looking at a surface) , and the river would have been headed towards high tide in the early hours of that morning. So basically, from just before 4am the tide would have turned to ebb back out towards the estuary - so a strong pull.

That sounds simple, but there are a number of other factors that usually come into play, assuming that someone isn't alive when they enter the water. I don't want to be too graphic, but a body will sink and stay below the surface for a period of days, depending upon temperature and body composition.

So in short, you have the impact of currents going on below the surface as the tide turns - plus there were a good few tidal movements before searches started in earnest.

 

[HopeForGoodNews]

They haven't said. It could be a combination. I'd quite like to know how much he is using the interpreter for repeating the questions or relating his answers. It would make no difference, just curiosity

My thinking was just that he said he didn't take Libby to a police station because of his poor English. Clearly not that poor if he's directly answering questions in court. Another lie?

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I wish we knew exactly where he was seen by the witness, it would make this bit so much easier to sleuth accurately!

It will be interesting to see whether forensic ecology shows that the mud and grass at the park entrance is different to the mud and grass at the riverbank... and which of the above was found on the soles of his shoes.