UK - Logan Mwangi, 5, found dead in Wales River, Bridgend, 31 July 2021 *arrests, inc. minor* #2

[Kitkat28]

A few random points:
-IMO quite a few people are misinterpreting the relationship between the youth, JC and AW. There seems to be a lot of talk of the youth’s mother and father throughout this thread, who, as far as we know from MSM have absolutely nothing to do with this case.

-AW’s habit of constantly referring to Logan as “my son” instead of using his name is incredibly grating. He’s a person not a possession.

-Debbie Williams seems very much in the youth’s thrall. Too much so IMO

 

[ChloLo]

I don't want to mount a defence of her because it's poor, but it's also a hell of a job. These kinds of things are horrible balancing acts with a lot of he said/she said thrown in.

This is a fairly recent article where only 29% of social workers feel their workload is manageable: 'It's frustrating': UK social workers say they lack time and resources to do their job

Sadly she will end up being made a scapegoat for far bigger problems.

I have a lot of experience with social workers and friends who are social workers. I am well aware of how challenging the job is. However, there are a number of questionable actions taken by Debbie Williams being stated and she has potentially committed perjury. We have:
1) Not reprimanding the youth for negative behaviours.
2) Denying any knowledge of the threats the youth made while with the foster family.
3) Not bothering to return Logan’s social workers call to share information.
4) Putting the youth with JC after leaving foster care.

 

[HongKongPhooey]

Is Debbie Williamson the SW that denied all knowledge of the Foster families claims the Youth was violent ? She seems to have a weirdly close relationship with him, is hugging even allowed ?

It feels like some weird version of Stockholm Syndrome to me.

 

[SpursGyal]

Cole's police interviews
The jury have been hearing the full transcript of Cole's police interviews.

The transcription is 20 pages long - so we are just going through our notes and checking them them (and removing any references that could identify the youth defendant - who is not allowed to be named for legal reasons). We will be the transcription of the interviews as soon as we're able to do so.

The case has now broken for lunch and will resume again at 2pm.

Youth accused of murder said 'I like to punch kids' heads', jury told

 

[infinit]

I have a lot of experience with social workers and friends who are social workers. I am well aware of how challenging the job is. However, there are a number of questionable actions taken by Debbie Williams being stated and she has potentially committed perjury. We have:
1) Not reprimanding the youth for negative behaviours.
2) Denying any knowledge of the threats the youth made while with the foster family.
3) Not bothering to return Logan’s social workers call to share information.
4) Putting the youth with JC after leaving foster care.

That's fair. Yeah, it sounds like it really boils down to the knowledge of the threats. Again though, there are a lot of troubled kids who do a lot of concerning stuff. If she's lying about knowing then that's just unacceptable. I'd hope at the least there is a review of other cases she's worked on to review her standard of work.

From my understanding of the system, she alone would not determine where the youth was placed. That would be determined by a Panel with input from her.

 

[Bluedaisy100]

That's fair. Yeah, it sounds like it really boils down to the knowledge of the threats. Again though, there are a lot of troubled kids who do a lot of concerning stuff. If she's lying about knowing then that's just unacceptable. I'd hope at the least there is a review of other cases she's worked on to review her standard of work.

From my understanding of the system, she alone would not determine where the youth was placed. That would be determined by a Panel with input from her.

Does the Panel have input from other sources aside from the social worker? It could be just a rubber stamp for the social worker's opinion..

 

[Alyce]

Snipped from SpursGyal's post above


Williamson told her family the date of the trial and told them she would remain in prison for 45 months



So she's done her calculations, worked out she's only getting 8 years max and expects to be released on licence after 4.

I hope she's in for a shock

 

[ChloLo]

That's fair. Yeah, it sounds like it really boils down to the knowledge of the threats. Again though, there are a lot of troubled kids who do a lot of concerning stuff. If she's lying about knowing then that's just unacceptable. I'd hope at the least there is a review of other cases she's worked on to review her standard of work.

From my understanding of the system, she alone would not determine where the youth was placed. That would be determined by a Panel with input from her.

The foster family were pretty adamant that they informed her of the threats, if I recall correctly they said something along the lines of she just brushed them off. It been a while since that evidence though so I could be wrong.

What panel are you referring to? We don’t know under what section the youth was placed into foster care, whether it was after a section 47 inquiry and subsequent court proceeding, or was a voluntary section 20.

 

[infinit]

The foster family were pretty adamant that they informed her of the threats, if I recall correctly they said something along the lines of she just brushed them off. It been a while since that evidence though so I could be wrong.

What panel are you referring to? We don’t know under what section the youth was placed into foster care, whether it was after a section 47 inquiry and subsequent court proceeding, or was a voluntary section 20.

Yeah, it sounds like she's screwed it up, not doubting that. Section 20 you'd expect a LAC review at a minimum which should have an Independent Reviewing Officer. Section 47 I'm really not that familiar with the details of how the child is then returned.

My comment wasn't really as such a defence of her. But when you mix a system that seems to want to prioritise children staying with their parents and you then overwork the people making the decisions. This is the consequence. She should be held accountable, but firing her is akin to spitting in the ocean.

 

[neteditor]

I have a lot of experience with social workers and friends who are social workers. I am well aware of how challenging the job is. However, there are a number of questionable actions taken by Debbie Williams being stated and she has potentially committed perjury. We have:
1) Not reprimanding the youth for negative behaviours.
2) Denying any knowledge of the threats the youth made while with the foster family.
3) Not bothering to return Logan’s social workers call to share information.
4) Putting the youth with JC after leaving foster care.

I don't know any social workers at all, so these are genuine questions you may or may not be able to answer, or we might not (yet) enough information to assess.

1) If Youth was known to react violently to criticism, reprimands etc, would SW teams make decisions not to do anything to trigger him?

2) (no question)

3) Could that be something we see blamed on "pressure of work" and "too much caseload" as we have seen in just about every other family child killing for decades and where lessons are clearly not being learnt?

4) I don't think we know anything about why this decision was made, and unless his privacy is overturned if convicted, I don't think we ever will. Do you know if SW look for "best case scenario" or are they content to settle with "least worst scenario"? I hope we do find out more about this decision I feel certain it has directly led to Logan's death.

 

[neteditor]

Snipped from SpursGyal's post above


Williamson told her family the date of the trial and told them she would remain in prison for 45 months



So she's done her calculations, worked out she's only getting 8 years max and expects to be released on licence after 4.

I hope she's in for a shock

I'd think her brief has given her the proscribed sentencing rates - if you get convicted of only the lesser charge you'll get 8 yrs, out in 4. If you get the murder it's life. She's decided herself she's going to be convicted of the lesser charge, which suggests to my mind an admission (at least to herself) of her guilt.

 

[mrazda71]

Phone Call- AW was still lying to her Mother then. You can't be turning lights on and off in your sons bedroom from your bed now can you !!

I mean ... you can if you have hive/WiFi bulbs

 

[RusselSprout]

I'd think her brief has given her the proscribed sentencing rates - if you get convicted of only the lesser charge you'll get 8 yrs, out in 4. If you get the murder it's life. She's decided herself she's going to be convicted of the lesser charge, which suggests to my mind an admission (at least to herself) of her guilt.

is she not also charged with allowing the death of child? Which looks like upto 14 years imprisonment.

Causing or allowing a child to suffer serious physical harm/ Causing or allowing a child to die – Sentencing

 

[neteditor]

is she not also charged with allowing the death of child? Which looks like upto 14 years imprisonment.

Causing or allowing a child to suffer serious physical harm/ Causing or allowing a child to die – Sentencing

To be honest, I don't know what the specific sentencing is for each charge, but was giving as an example, based on the previous post which mentioned 45 months/8yrs. i.e. to suggest not that AW had done her research but that her brief had told her the basics of sentencing. And that is MOO and possibly entirely wrong of course

 

[Bluebear15]

I mean ... you can if you have hive/WiFi bulbs

They were on benefits... the chances that they could afford those type of bulbs are slim.

 

[Alyce]

I'd think her brief has given her the proscribed sentencing rates - if you get convicted of only the lesser charge you'll get 8 yrs, out in 4. If you get the murder it's life. She's decided herself she's going to be convicted of the lesser charge, which suggests to my mind an admission (at least to herself) of her guilt.

From memory, which is hazy right now, I think that originally she was not facing a murder charge. So it is very likely she did her calcs at that time ( or rather, as you say, her brief did them for her ) and was working on this 8 years out in 4 deal.

 

[tedtink]

I'm Just adding 1 update........

14:34PHILIP DEWEY

Defendant John Cole's police interviews read to jury
The court will now hear the transcripts of John Cole’s police interviews.

Junior barrister Claire Pickthall will read Cole’s parts and DC Gillon Neal is asked to read his own part as the interviewing officer.

The first interview took place at 6.22pm on August 1, in which Cole’s solicitor read out a prepared statement on behalf of his client.

Cole gave his name as John Michael Cole and his birthday as February 4, 1982. He said he preferred to be called Jay, as his sister had called him that name and she has since died.

He added: “Angharad and I have been together for two-and-a-half years…

“Angharad is epileptic and can have seizures which screws up her memory. She once had 22 rolling seizures in a day.”

He added: “Angharad has a five-year-old son called Logan. Logan’s dad is called Ben, I have not met him. He and Angharad split up long before I met her. She had been in a relationship with someone called Jordan and were married, when we met she had just got divorced from him.

“Only once did Logan see Ben. Ben never came to Wales. They went to London to stay with Ben when Angharad was pregnant and was just starting to show. When (Logan) came back, he told a story about Angharad where her and Ben slept in the same bed.

“She would get upset and angry and would react. She said it wasn’t like that, I told her I believed her and left it there.”

 

[ChloLo]

Yeah, it sounds like she's screwed it up, not doubting that. Section 20 you'd expect a LAC review at a minimum which should have an Independent Reviewing Officer. Section 47 I'm really not that familiar with the details of how the child is then returned.

My comment wasn't really as such a defence of her. But when you mix a system that seems to want to prioritise children staying with their parents and you then overwork the people making the decisions. This is the consequence. She should be held accountable, but firing her is akin to spitting in the ocean.

I think my initial comment may have been hasty and said more as an emotional reaction.
IROs give a final rubber stamp as it were, but as far as I’m aware the social worker with management approval makes the decision.

I don't know any social workers at all, so these are genuine questions you may or may not be able to answer, or we might not (yet) enough information to assess.

1) If Youth was known to react violently to criticism, reprimands etc, would SW teams make decisions not to do anything to trigger him?

2) (no question)

3) Could that be something we see blamed on "pressure of work" and "too much caseload" as we have seen in just about every other family child killing for decades and where lessons are clearly not being learnt?

4) I don't think we know anything about why this decision was made, and unless his privacy is overturned if convicted, I don't think we ever will. Do you know if SW look for "best case scenario" or are they content to settle with "least worst scenario"? I hope we do find out more about this decision I feel certain it has directly led to Logan's death.

1) That’s a possibility. However, at some point they should start trying to correct the behaviour and should challenge the youth. Otherwise it’s a green light to continue behaving that way. Plus they could have extra workers present when delivering any news that may trigger that sort of reaction. I don’t think it’s beneficial to always allow the youth to behave like this.

3) Of course, threats of that nature though really shouldn’t have been allowed to slip through the net.

4) I guess it depends on the options available at the time of the decision.

 

[Alyce]

Next update

15:35David James

Defendant admits he used to shout at Logan

Cole’s prepared statement to police continues.

He described Logan as a “boisterous and lively child.”

He added: “Angharad struggled with her epilepsy, she spent less time with Logan and the bond became less. Logan spent less time in his bedroom alone. He would be on his tablet a lot…

“Logan’s behaviour got worse, he started becoming more attention seeking, kicking off, diving on things, throwing and taking things. His grandmother locked him in the car and he wandered off. The police got involved and Angharad argued with her mum…

“I had a good bond with Logan, bought him presents and gave him attention…

“He was at times violent… He was only a child and it was really hard to get him to understand….

“We both really tried with Logan, we sat him down and explained things with him and saw we loved (him). He would work himself up again and start again. We tried the naughty corner and gave him colouring. He would pinch and bit himself. Sometimes he would kick out.

“It was difficult, sometimes he could be a lovely child but we were trying with him.

“He would sometimes start saying about Angharad being in bed with Ben and she would grab him by both arms and shout at him. She grabbed him and shouted ‘Stop *advertiser censored***** lying’.

“I took him to the bedroom and he got quite boisterous…

“When he was naughty, I would tap him on the back of his hands or his head, saying ‘Stop’. Me and Angharad would both do this, only to stop him doing something that would cause harm or injury. We put him in his bedroom and gave him colouring to calm down.

“When Angharad thought she had MS, she had a wheelchair and Logan would climb on that fell off. In school he got hurt and was jumping off tables.

“He was a lovely child but a handful and we were struggling. Both of us used to shout at him and took hold of him to stop him from hurting himself.

“It was really stressful and Logan’s behaviour got worse.”


Youth accused of murder said 'I like to punch kids' heads', jury told

 

[tedtink]

Next update

15:35David James

Defendant admits he used to shout at Logan

Cole’s prepared statement to police continues.

He described Logan as a “boisterous and lively child.”

He added: “Angharad struggled with her epilepsy, she spent less time with Logan and the bond became less. Logan spent less time in his bedroom alone. He would be on his tablet a lot…

“Logan’s behaviour got worse, he started becoming more attention seeking, kicking off, diving on things, throwing and taking things. His grandmother locked him in the car and he wandered off. The police got involved and Angharad argued with her mum…

“I had a good bond with Logan, bought him presents and gave him attention…

“He was at times violent… He was only a child and it was really hard to get him to understand….

“We both really tried with Logan, we sat him down and explained things with him and saw we loved (him). He would work himself up again and start again. We tried the naughty corner and gave him colouring. He would pinch and bit himself. Sometimes he would kick out.

“It was difficult, sometimes he could be a lovely child but we were trying with him.

“He would sometimes start saying about Angharad being in bed with Ben and she would grab him by both arms and shout at him. She grabbed him and shouted ‘Stop *advertiser censored***** lying’.

“I took him to the bedroom and he got quite boisterous…

“When he was naughty, I would tap him on the back of his hands or his head, saying ‘Stop’. Me and Angharad would both do this, only to stop him doing something that would cause harm or injury. We put him in his bedroom and gave him colouring to calm down.

“When Angharad thought she had MS, she had a wheelchair and Logan would climb on that fell off. In school he got hurt and was jumping off tables.

“He was a lovely child but a handful and we were struggling. Both of us used to shout at him and took hold of him to stop him from hurting himself.

“It was really stressful and Logan’s behaviour got worse.”


Youth accused of murder said 'I like to punch kids' heads', jury told

This sounds like JC's trying to justify the violence towards LM and suggests JC thought LM posed a danger to himself FFS! He was only 5!