GUILTY UK - Marc Williams, 18, did not arrive home to Uckfield, E. Sussex, found deceased, 29 May 2021

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If you watch the above vid, MW talks about meeting a girl, so I don't think there was a relationship other than good mates, with in MW's words, LA being an "awesome" guy to let off teenage steam with.

He also describes himself as being asexual at the beginning.

I must say, I found the livestream painful to watch, on all sorts of levels.

He refers to LA as being one of the participants in the live youtube chat and says he's the person with the username Morale Unknown. LA says he is thinking of making his own youtube channel and urbex vids, but he doesn't seem to have done so, or not using that username as far as I can find.

There did seem to be a sense in which MW was wanting to take a step back from doing the urbex stuff and youtube recordings, and LA was egging him on to continue. There's also a point at which LA (or the person in the livechat purporting to be him) says that he finds nighttime recces the most satisfying. If the climbing/exploring is a factor in this at all, then it does seem to me that it may have developed something of a coercive character latterly. I'm wondering if MW was growing up and knuckling down, and perhaps looked like he was going to be leaving LA behind.

If anyone is wondering if they can be bothered to watch the 42 minutes of live feed, I recommend it for getting an insight into MW as a subject.

JMO
 
You note after that live stream, MW did an Eastbourne climb in April while drunk he admits, as I mentioned above. Seems a town they both had connections to.

If they were both drinking this time last week and then MW got urged on to do something? Are there any abandoned buildings in the area, or where scaffolding is up? I wonder why it is said something happened there specifically?
 
You note after that live stream, MW did an Eastbourne climb in April while drunk he admits, as I mentioned above. Seems a town they both had connections to.

If they were both drinking this time last week and then MW got urged on to do something? Are there any abandoned buildings in the area, or where scaffolding is up? I wonder why it is said something happened there specifically?

Yes, I see this as a plausible scenario too. But as @jackal67 implies, you have to ask yourself what the missing step is. Because ordinarily in that scenario, LA is calling an ambulance to help his injured friend. However guilty he may be feeling in his head for egging his friend on, he dials 999 first and worries about the rest later. Moving his dead friend to dense woodland several miles away in the middle of the night and going on the run (on the bus :rolleyes:) is not a normal response to the situation imo. So what's the missing factor? What would make that seem like the thing to do? Drink? Drugs? Defensive injuries on yourself? A third party telling you to cover your tracks because no one will believe you? A third party in your head that only you can hear telling you to cover your tracks because no one will believe you?

As ever recently, I'm finding myself looking at the mass degradation in mental health of young adults, particularly males, and thinking in terms of lockdown stress, proximity to difficult situations at home, isolation from friends and support, increased self-medication particularly with cannabinoids, and wondering how all of those might have come together to turn an accident into a tragedy.

JMO
 
I've just watched the live stream posted above. It made for quite depressing viewing, even without knowing what has happened since. Marc doesn't seem to have been a very happy young man. There are several references to letting people down, letting himself down, wasting his life and he seems to have been desperate for attention from the Youtube channel, to the extent that he was talking about it being good for his ratings if he got in trouble with the police. I also noticed like @JuicyLucy that Lewis (if indeed that was Lewis commenting, but I think that we can assume that it was as Marc remembered the username later in the video) seemed to be pushing the urbex stuff more. I wondered whether this combined with a desire for attention to push Marc into doing something he might not otherwise have tried.

One thing I noticed was that Marc and Lewis don't seem to have been particularly close friends from the way Marc was speaking.

Am I correct in thinking that Lewis was arrested (Tuesday 1st June daytime) before Marc's body was found (Tuesday 1st June night)? I am very intrigued to know what led the police to things happening in this order. Perhaps there was a third-party witness? Do we know whether Lewis drives/has access to a car?

Apologies if I have missed this, but has anyone picked up on Marc's interest in furries? He seems to have been quite open about it online, although I haven't had much time to look into this case yet - just thought I would mention it in case it hasn't come up yet, as it's seen as something quite weird and could make him a target for bullying etc.
 
So, I’ve spent the morning acquainting myself with Sussex villages for your sleuthing convenience. ;) I was interested in the idea that MW and LA might have been doing some climbing or exploring before MW met with his death. The area around Uckfield is being heavily developed for so-called affordable housing as it’s just outside the South Downs National Park, where there are enhanced planning restrictions, so I thought that there might be a nearby building site or similar.

First, I went to Fairwarp, where LA lives. Fairwarp is small and pretty. It’s a traditional Sussex village, a mixture of old and new buildings, a pub, a church, a village green, a telephone box that’s been turned into a teeny library, friendly people. It’s completely surrounded by forested areas. If LA has lived there for any length of time (I haven’t checked this), he’ll be very familiar with the forest paths, which are safe shortcuts for anyone on foot, compared with the risks of walking on country roads without pavements. There is one very narrow, very winding (but driveable) lane that leads to the deposition site at Heron’s Ghyll and on to the A26. It’s a very steep incline the closer you get to HG. The road on the other side of Fairwarp leads either to the A22 or into Maresfield, depending on which way you turn at the end, and is wider and faster, also without pavements until you come into Maresfield itself.

Maresfield is bigger but also very nice indeed, although dominated by the proximity of the A roads. The centre of the village is older housing, with new development on the outskirts. The recreation ground is central and is very large compared with anything urban dwellers are probably imagining. It has a private access road down one side with a gravelled parking area separated from the grass by sawn stumps of wood. Opposite the parking spaces are houses that look directly on to the rec.

Rec from houses.JPG
Houses from rec.JPG

The grass is extensive and contains a decent size cricket pitch and two sight screens, plus a pavilion. On the far size of it is a bowling green surrounded by chainlink fence that looks as though it’s been climbed over and burrowed under by a million teenagers, and a children’s playground surrounded by a 5m metal fence. I wondered what on earth Maresfield’s children were being protected from (giraffes? pumas?) until I turned around and realised it was probably cricket balls. The playground is tidy and well maintained although one of the kiddie swings bears the signs of having taken more weight than it should recently.

Bowling green.JPG
Playground and cricket nets.JPG
Interesting sign.JPG

Next to the playground is another fenced-in area containing a small cricket net, a large shipping container, and some kind of mystery item covered with a weighted-down tarpaulin. From a distance, I thought this was a forensic tent but it isn’t. The cricket net and the shipping container look like they would be fun things to climb all over if you were young, fit and bored, but there’s no sign that any of the foliage around them has been disturbed either in the course of that or as part of an evidence gathering exercise. The shipping container doesn’t seem to be padlocked and may be accessible to anyone who has already scaled the fence. Beyond that fenced area is an extended area of grassland that looks as though it’s mainly used by dog walkers.

Mysterious object.JPG
Dogwalking land.JPG

Everything was very clean and tidy. No sign of bottles, cigarette butts, McDonalds wrappers, syringes, nitrous canisters, condoms or any of the detritus you’d find in town and city parks and recs. Also no sign of where the police have been looking or where the murder itself is supposed to have taken place, no decaying supermarket flowers, no votive candles. Maresfield seems like the kind of place where any mess the police might have left behind would be swept up instantly by the Rotary Club or something, but additionally the layout of the place makes it very hard to see where you’d start looking for any evidence of a struggle. It’s very open. There are no remote corners behind structures, sudden drops (except from fences), nothing derelict, not even any public loos. I’ve looked, and been unable to find, any press photos showing exactly where the police were searching on Maresfield rec. Everyone has just used library pics of the entrance where the cars park. All the published crime scene pics are from the Heron’s Ghyll site.

So, a few thoughts.

1. It seems to me that Maresfield was chosen as a rendezvous point because it was roughly equidistant for MW and LA. MW says in the YT livestream that he lives very close to Uckfield College. He could have cycled north from there, chip-chopped across the A22 at Ringles Cross and come into Maresfield from the south. LA could have cycled himself (though no one has mentioned that he did) or walked south from Fairwarp. Maresfield itself has nothing on offer for teenagers on a Saturday night except the rec, as far as I can see.

2. There’s nothing obvious nearby that would have attracted them from an urbex point of view. Nothing derelict, nothing being built, nothing very challenging to climb except in a larking about kind of way, nothing so high that I would expect a fall to be instantly fatal.

3. If the killing did happen on Maresfield rec, I think it must have happened on the far (playground/bowling green) side, well away from the houses, given that everyone was searching for MW for days and no one seems to have reported a disturbance. That said, there are also houses behind the playground, albeit without a sightline, so perhaps it happened on the dogwalking land rather than the rec itself.

4. There is no way you could get a dead body from Maresfield to Heron’s Ghyll without a vehicle, either in terms its weight and bulk, or in terms of moving unobserved. I think that’s true even if there was more than one of you. You would struggle even to get it from the rec to the parking area without being seen or heard or doing a lot of damage to the cricket pitch. I did notice that one of the wooden stumps blocking cars from getting on to the grass has been removed and there do seem to be some marks where tyres have flattened the grass, though tbh that could have been done by anyone in the last week, including the police. Provided the section of parking with the gap was free, though, it would just be possible to drive over the grass. I am very interested to know if LA had access to a car.

Missing stump.JPG

5. Even if you had some kind of vehicle alternative, e.g. a shopping trolley, you would struggle round here to move a body without attracting a lot of attention and/or causing a road accident, because of the lack of pavements.

6. I don’t see how police could be aware of both a primary crime scene at Maresfield and the deposition site at Heron’s Ghyll without a confession, either to themselves or to a third party. They are far enough apart that a witness in one location could not also be a witness in the other.

7. In between the moving of the body and the amount the police seem to have learned quite quickly (including where to find LA), I am wondering whether a third person was either involved or aware in short order of what had happened.

I'm happy to try and answer any questions anyone has, and I have other photos if anyone wants me to try and look for something specific.

JMO
 
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So, I’ve spent the morning acquainting myself with Sussex villages for your sleuthing convenience. ;) I was interested in the idea that MW and LA might have been doing some climbing or exploring before MW met with his death. The area around Uckfield is being heavily developed for so-called affordable housing as it’s just outside the South Downs National Park, where there are enhanced planning restrictions, so I thought that there might be a nearby building site or similar.

First, I went to Fairwarp, where LA lives. Fairwarp is small and pretty. It’s a traditional Sussex village, a mixture of old and new buildings, a pub, a church, a village green, a telephone box that’s been turned into a teeny library, friendly people. It’s completely surrounded by forested areas. If LA has lived there for any length of time (I haven’t checked this), he’ll be very familiar with the forest paths, which are safe shortcuts for anyone on foot, compared with the risks of walking on country roads without pavements. There is one very narrow, very winding (but driveable) lane that leads to the deposition site at Heron’s Ghyll and on to the A26. It’s a very steep incline the closer you get to HG. The road on the other side of Fairwarp leads either to the A22 or into Maresfield, depending on which way you turn at the end, and is wider and faster, also without pavements until you come into Maresfield itself.

Maresfield is bigger but also very nice indeed, although dominated by the proximity of the A roads. The centre of the village is older housing, with new development on the outskirts. The recreation ground is central and is very large compared with anything urban dwellers are probably imagining. It has a private access road down one side with a gravelled parking area separated from the grass by sawn stumps of wood. Opposite the parking spaces are houses that look directly on to the rec.

View attachment 299703
View attachment 299704

The grass is extensive and contains a decent size cricket pitch and two sight screens, plus a pavilion. On the far size of it is a bowling green surrounded by chainlink fence that looks as though it’s been climbed over and burrowed under by a million teenagers, and a children’s playground surrounded by a 5m metal fence. I wondered what on earth Maresfield’s children were being protected from (giraffes? pumas?) until I turned around and realised it was probably cricket balls. The playground is tidy and well maintained although one of the kiddie swings bears the signs of having taken more weight than it should recently.

View attachment 299705
View attachment 299706
View attachment 299707

Next to the playground is another fenced-in area containing a small cricket net, a large shipping container, and some kind of mystery item covered with a weighted-down tarpaulin. From a distance, I thought this was a forensic tent but it isn’t. The cricket net and the shipping container look like they would be fun things to climb all over if you were young, fit and bored, but there’s no sign that any of the foliage around them has been disturbed either in the course of that or as part of an evidence gathering exercise. The shipping container doesn’t seem to be padlocked and may be accessible to anyone who has already scaled the fence. Beyond that fenced area is an extended area of grassland that looks as though it’s mainly used by dog walkers.

View attachment 299708
View attachment 299709

Everything was very clean and tidy. No sign of bottles, cigarette butts, McDonalds wrappers, syringes, nitrous canisters, condoms or any of the detritus you’d find in town and city parks and recs. Also no sign of where the police have been looking or where the murder itself is supposed to have taken place, no decaying supermarket flowers, no votive candles. Maresfield seems like the kind of place where any mess the police might have left behind would be swept up instantly by the Rotary Club or something, but additionally the layout of the place makes it very hard to see where you’d start looking for any evidence of a struggle. It’s very open. There are no remote corners behind structures, sudden drops (except from fences), nothing derelict, not even any public loos. I’ve looked, and been unable to find, any press photos showing exactly where the police were searching on Maresfield rec. Everyone has just used library pics of the entrance where the cars park. All the published crime scene pics are from the Heron’s Ghyll site.

So, a few thoughts.

1. It seems to me that Maresfield was chosen as a rendezvous point because it was roughly equidistant for MW and LA. MW says in the YT livestream that he lives very close to Uckfield College. He could have cycled north from there, chip-chopped across the A22 at Ringles Cross and come into Maresfield from the south. LA could have cycled himself (though no one has mentioned that he did) or walked south from Fairwarp. Maresfield itself has nothing on offer for teenagers on a Saturday night except the rec, as far as I can see.

2. There’s nothing obvious nearby that would have attracted them from an urbex point of view. Nothing derelict, nothing being built, nothing very challenging to climb except in a larking about kind of way, nothing so high that I would expect a fall to be instantly fatal.

3. If the killing did happen on Maresfield rec, I think it must have happened on the far (playground/bowling green) side, well away from the houses, given that everyone was searching for MW for days and no one seems to have reported a disturbance. That said, there are also houses behind the playground, albeit without a sightline, so perhaps it happened on the dogwalking land rather than the rec itself.

4. There is no way you could get a dead body from Maresfield to Heron’s Ghyll without a vehicle, either in terms its weight and bulk, or in terms of moving unobserved. I think that’s true even if there was more than one of you. You would struggle even to get it from the rec to the parking area without being seen or heard or doing a lot of damage to the cricket pitch. I did notice that one of the wooden stumps blocking cars from getting on to the grass has been removed and there do seem to be some marks where tyres have flattened the grass, though tbh that could have been done by anyone in the last week, including the police. Provided the section of parking with the gap was free, though, it would just be possible to drive over the grass. I am very interested to know if LA had access to a car.

View attachment 299710

5. Even if you had some kind of vehicle alternative, e.g. a shopping trolley, you would struggle round here to move a body without attracting a lot of attention and/or causing a road accident, because of the lack of pavements.

6. I don’t see how police could be aware of both a primary crime scene at Maresfield and the deposition site at Heron’s Ghyll without a confession, either to themselves or to a third party. They are far enough apart that a witness in one location could not also be a witness in the other.

7. In between the moving of the body and the amount the police seem to have learned quite quickly (including where to find LA), I am wondering whether a third person was either involved or aware in short order of what had happened.

I'm happy to try and answer any questions anyone has, and I have other photos if anyone wants me to try and look for something specific.

JMO
Wow. Great work . Very informative. Thank you. I had imagined a much smaller recreation ground.
Still can't fathom why they went there though.
LA worked in a pub wonder if it was bar or kitchen work? Most 18 year olds I know would have spent their evenings at a pub not hanging around a rec unless there was a group of them.
Agree had to be a car involved or a third party unless the murder didnt happen at the Rec at all but where the body was found. Could they both have been walking back to LAs house even ?
Still feel that they had a falling out which turned violent and that there was a more than friends relationship
JMO of course
 
I think we're getting to the point where Police have had time to investigate Lewis' version of events to validate their case against it and nothing seems to have come out that charges are being altered or dropped. Personally I think this being explained by an accident gone wrong is getting less likely.
 
Just watched video of Marc Willians posted earlier

This video is rather interesting.

Done back in March, MW is talking about the channel and where it's going. He says he wants to get back into the climbing and was going to talk to LA.

Interestingly, he mentions how his back is pretty bad and was going to go to hospital.

I do wonder if they were doing something like this, building climbing, last Saturday night and perhaps they were larking around and MW got pushed accidentally? JMO.
Just watched this video. I felt sad watching it. I got the impression Marc was a loner and Lewis was probably one of the few friends he had.

Points I noted.

He was very nervous throughout video leg and arm shaking and twitching. Very concerned with subscribers and views which sadly is a reflection of today's society (I have a 13 year old son and confidence can be gained or destroyed by views etc). Note some viewers seem to be there to ridicule him. He does say probably only 20 of his 140 subscribers are there for the content and not to take the Micky.

One of the viewers appears to be Lewis. When Marc refers to Lewis he seems to look up to him, take the lead from him. Wonder whether he is one of only friends he has. He mentions his brother joining Police. I get the impression he has been warned by his brother re trespassing. He talks of doing another video with Lewis and bringing his brother. He also talks about security course he is doing and losing licence if one of his subscribers grassed him up. Seems to have major trust issues. I note he did mention Uckfield College not dealing with bullying effectively.

He also mentions messaging Lewis previoualy but not receiving reply.

Interestingly about 10 mins in he reads a viewers comment which says something about going to the woods again and getting arrested! Something said about Bluebell Railway as well.

Lewis is saying something about climbing another building and Marc says he will message him. Marc sounds to me conflicted. I wonder whether he promised to do another video with Lewis and when they met backed out if it. Marc seems to me to be someone who could be manipulated and taken advantage of but seems to have also been warned about effect on his career etc, probably warned off brother as well not to get in trouble with Police if brother training to be one.
 
Lewis is saying something about climbing another building and Marc says he will message him. Marc sounds to me conflicted. I wonder whether he promised to do another video with Lewis and when they met backed out if it. Marc seems to me to be someone who could be manipulated and taken advantage of but seems to have also been warned about effect on his career etc, probably warned off brother as well not to get in trouble with Police if brother training to be one.

Great post. His brother would have to disclose if a family member had/obtained a criminal record, this actually gets reviewed it appears and can even cause you to become ineligible. So I could see the brother being very serious about it.
Police vetting process
 
Great post. His brother would have to disclose if a family member had/obtained a criminal record, this actually gets reviewed it appears and can even cause you to become ineligible. So I could see the brother being very serious about it.
Police vetting process
I did wonder about that. My sister used to be a Magistrate and I know they couldnt have any family members with a criminal record.
 
The only thing taking a 2nd look at Maps that takes my eye is Ashdown Business Park, there is a John Lewis Distribution Centre. Seems the kind of place that could potentially make a good Urban Ex YouTube video if you could pull it off and isn't far from the Recreation Ground? Would also be more risk in terms of getting caught than what they've typically done.
 
The other place they talked in the livestream about trying to explore was Hamilton Palace, Nicholas van Hoogstraten's half-finished mansion, which is about four miles away, near Little Horsted.

I notice that there was a piece in the local press only 5 days before Marc died about this - it looks like Lisa Powell, another urban explorer, got in and took a load of photographs of it even though it's supposed to be impossible to get into.
Amazing new photos show inside of huge abandoned Hamilton Palace

I wonder if that's something they might have argued about. Lewis might have blamed Marc for dragging his heels about getting in there, perhaps thought it could have been their big break if only they had been the first to get in and get pics/footage, etc.

JMO, maybe coincidence.
 
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I think the psychiatric reports on LA will be telling. We don't know his medical history and it could well transpire he has had depressive bouts over the last years, maybe even worse, psychotic episodes. If he was hearing voices that were telling him MW was the devil or such...

That and the PM report.

Still just doesn't feel right this was an out and out intentional homicide.
 
I think the psychiatric reports on LA will be telling. We don't know his medical history and it could well transpire he has had depressive bouts over the last years, maybe even worse, psychotic episodes. If he was hearing voices that were telling him MW was the devil or such...

That and the PM report.

Still just doesn't feel right this was an out and out intentional homicide.

I agree. I don't think we'll hear about psych reports until the next court date (?August ?autumn - can't remember) but I'm surprised the PM findings and CoD haven't been released yet. If Marc's body was found late in the day last Tuesday, I can't believe the PM wasn't done before the weekend.

JMO
 

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