UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #10

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I haven't seen it stated anywhere that all the cases sent for review were suspicious. I think that's a faulty assumption. The defence would have picked up on the similar expert's reports that didn't result in charges, with the prosecution's duty to disclose exculpatory evidence, ie evidence that does not help their case, and they would be making a meal of it. JMO

I don't agree that a scientific explanation for a death is only for TV. Obviously there can be more than one medical event which starts a chain of other medical events, but the prosecution experts have answered these theories and ruled them out by pointing to clinical data showing periods of improvement, self-correction and stability. The thing that links all of these cases is the unexpected nature of them, which stumped doctors at the time and which LL talked about in many of her texts. JMO
Apologies, let me clarify: in relation to the deaths, what prompted the initial police referral was the fact that there was a large spike in the number of deaths during 2015 and 2016. There were 15 deaths; LL is charged in relation to 7 of them.

There were 5 deaths during 2013 and 2014 for comparison. So even putting aside the cases where LL is accused of murder, the number of deaths in the unit represented a spike , which made them suspicious/concerning .

I don’t know what the ‘usual’ figures were for non fatal collapses and how that compared with the number of collapses in 2025 and 2016.

What I would like to know is whether the other cases of fatal and non fatal collapses which represented a spike in the rate of collapses shared features with the cases LL is charged with.

But I agree, they may have sent some non suspicious cases to the experts for review as control cases .
 
.
..
earlier charges

2015
8 Jun - A - murder
10 Jun - B - attempted murder
14 Jun - C - murder
22 Jun - D - murder
4 Aug - E - murder
5 Aug - F - attempted murder
7 Sep - G - attempted murder
21 Sep - G - 2 x attempted murder
26 Sep - H - attempted murder
27 Sep - H - attempted murder
30 Sep - I - attempted murder
13 Oct - I - attempted murder
14 Oct - I - attempted murder
23 Oct - I murder

I know the prosecution had a chart of who was on shift when incidents occurred. Do we know whether they have plotted all the dates of all the alleged incidents onto a 12 month calendar from June 2015 to June 2016? That would be a good way to see if there were any patterns in the timing of the incidents, outside of, or in addition to LL's shift patterns.
 
I agree with that. There are several mentions of "extreme prematurity" almost as an explanation in itself. I feel this is is not helpful, as in my view babies may die of something which is a result of being preterm rather than prematurity itself - e.g. NEC, infection, immature lungs which make oxygenation impossible. But you know why it's happened. JMO.


Using the term "extreme prematurity" also makes it sound like the babies were all newborn, extreme preemies and terribly frail at the time. Whereas Baby I by 6 weeks, just before the alleged attacks started, was, as her mother described "looking around the room now, taking it all in. I was able to sit her on my knee. I remember looking at her and thinking ‘We are going home’. She looked like a full-term baby. She didn’t look frail or small.


 
I think they are coming up with alternative natural causes but in most cases, the defence isn’t picking one alternative cause and saying “that’s the reason” the baby collapsed. They seem to be saying (eg) baby A could have collapsed from lack of fluids or improperly positioned lines. But they aren’t in most cases nailing their colours to a particular mast . I think that explains why
Myers went on at length about doctors and experts not always having the answers to something .

But when they've come up with alternative causes like lack of fluids, the medical experts have said no that would not have caused what happened.
 
.
I don’t know what the ‘usual’ figures were for non fatal collapses and how that compared with the number of collapses in 2025 and 2016.

What I would like to know is whether the other cases of fatal and non fatal collapses which represented a spike in the rate of collapses shared features with the cases LL is charged with.


We haven't been given the figures for non fatal collapses before June 2015 compared to the June 2015 - June 2016 time period. However we have heard from Dr Gibbs that before 2015 it was uncommon to have to use adrenalin on babies, and that it then became more common as the collapses continued.

Three doses of adrenaline were administered to help stimulate the heart of the youngster and her heart rate eventually rose to a safe level after 22 minutes of resuscitation.

Philip Astbury, prosecuting, asked the now retired doctor: “Was the use of adrenaline in those circumstances a commonplace occurrence?”


Dr Gibbs replied: “No. It was becoming more common as events continued on the unit with repeated collapses of babies. Until 2015, uncommon.”

 
earlier charges

2015
8 Jun - A - murder
10 Jun - B - attempted murder
14 Jun - C - murder
22 Jun - D - murder
4 Aug - E - murder
5 Aug - F - attempted murder
7 Sep - G - attempted murder
21 Sep - G - 2 x attempted murder
26 Sep - H - attempted murder
27 Sep - H - attempted murder
30 Sep - I - attempted murder
13 Oct - I - attempted murder
14 Oct - I - attempted murder
23 Oct - I murder
In June 2015 and June 2016 there appears to be a striking uptick of events imo.
Babies A-D (June) and then a similar sort of pattern again in June the following year.
 
In June 2015 and June 2016 there appears to be a striking uptick of events imo.
Babies A-D (June) and then a similar sort of pattern again in June the following year.
In some ways this seems to be the largest (allegeded) of the cases in one month which is strikingly similar in June for both years.

June 2015 there are four babies in that month of interest in the trial A, B, C and D

June 2016, there are also four babies in that same month ( baby N has two separate events of 3rd and also 15th June x2 attempts), so narrowing this down; effectively- there are another 4 babies here;
N, O, P and Q

It makes one wonder (if guilty), what was significant about that month.
Moo
 
In some ways this seems to be the largest (allegeded) of the cases in one month which is strikingly similar in June for both years.

June 2015 there are four babies in that month of interest in the trial A, B, C and D

June 2016, there are also four babies in that same month ( baby N has two separate events of 3rd and also 15th June x2 attempts), so narrowing this down; effectively- there are another 4 babies here;
N, O, P and Q

It makes one wonder (if guilty), what was significant about that month.
Moo


I've pondered before whether, if guilty, the month of June was a signifcant date for LL. The only things I could come up with was maybe it was related to either Fathers Day, or maybe June was the anniversary of some significant event in LL's life. Or did anything happen at the hospital every June? Was it a time where new nurses or doctors would start working there? or was there some annual event for all hospitals in general in June?

IMO
 
.



We haven't been given the figures for non fatal collapses before June 2015 compared to the June 2015 - June 2016 time period. However we have heard from Dr Gibbs that before 2015 it was uncommon to have to use adrenalin on babies, and that it then became more common as the collapses continued.

Three doses of adrenaline were administered to help stimulate the heart of the youngster and her heart rate eventually rose to a safe level after 22 minutes of resuscitation.

Philip Astbury, prosecuting, asked the now retired doctor: “Was the use of adrenaline in those circumstances a commonplace occurrence?”


Dr Gibbs replied: “No. It was becoming more common as events continued on the unit with repeated collapses of babies. Until 2015, uncommon.”

I am also curious to hear if any of the other babies, that LL was not charged with any crimes for, had a history of having 3 or 4 collapses, like the babies in these court cases.
 
I am also curious to hear if any of the other babies, that LL was not charged with any crimes for, had a history of having 3 or 4 collapses, like the babies in these court cases.
Yes!
That would be very interesting (and sad :( )
But, so far, Defence never mentioned it.

But, who knows?

This trial is not even in the middle.

JMO
 
When she wasn't texting.
That is a mystery to me!

I picture her "overworked" juggling various jobs with
- designated babies, and not designated,

- meeting parents when invited and not invited,

-working day shifts but mostly night ones.
She is everywhere, but mostly in Room 1 with hardest cases.

- Oh, and preparing "memory boxes"and taking photos of dead babies.

As busy as an ant.

And yet, with such workload, the texts kept coming -
long, full of strange diagnoses and references to "rubbish" and "Fate".

During shifts, after shifts, before shifts and while "chilling" on the sofa.

Did she ever sleep? o_O
Some ppl have never ending energy!

Phew!

PS
I forgot to add Facebook searches.

JMO
 
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And I wonder how it is possible to retrieve messages from many years ago.
I understand they were WhatsApp's and encrypted.
Do they stay forever (somewhere)?
Don't they get deleted after some time?
There must be millions of them.
I guess Police got a warrant to get them.

I'm not very technical and don't know about WhatsApp storage but I used to work as a paralegal (not in criminal law) and I worked on a big case where we had to go through 5 years' worth of our clients' emails, looking for a "smoking gun". We uncovered a lot of unrelated information such as who was having an affair and who sent inappropriate jokes - and this was in work emails! So I can imagine there must be lots of revealing information to be found in private messages, well worth spending hours trawling through them :)
 
I just wanted to start a conversation about
I'm not very technical and don't know about WhatsApp storage but I used to work as a paralegal (not in criminal law) and I worked on a big case where we had to go through 5 years' worth of our clients' emails, looking for a "smoking gun". We uncovered a lot of unrelated information such as who was having an affair and who sent inappropriate jokes - and this was in work emails! So I can imagine there must be lots of revealing information to be found in private messages, well worth spending hours trawling through them :)
Agreed, even when you think you’ve deleted something, it often leaves a trace on your device or is stored somewhere (Thankfully, as that’s how so many paedos are caught for sharing child *advertiser censored*).

I don’t think there was any suggestion that LL had deleted these messages. And if you don’t delete them, I don’t think WhatsApp wipes them automatically after a certain period . Looking at my phone , I have WhatsApp conversations still on there from 5 years ago.
 
I wanted to start a discussion about the fact that we have been given so little information about LL during the trial so far. It’s a bit long!

I have to say that I have a real concern with the lack of background information being presented, and how this will play with the jury. To be clear, I’m not talking about character evidence: I don’t need to know if she volunteered at an animal charity in her spare time, or always helped her elderly neighbour with her shopping (as random examples). And I’m not necessarily talking about evidence regarding her motive for committing these crimes, if guilty. Motive is obviously something that we all would like to know about because humans are curious, and we particularly want to know why someone has done a terrible thing. I accept that you don’t necessarily need evidence of motive in order to find someone guilty of murder. If I see an accused walk up to someone in the street and shoot them in the head, killing them, I would like to know why they did that, but I don’t need to know because there is no doubt that they did it. But motive can become more important where the evidence isn’t as direct as the example above, as it can, in my opinion, help a jury to feel more comfortable with delivering a guilty verdict.

What I am talking about in this case is more the absence of the background narrative: some (if not all) of the sequence of events leading to LL’s alleged crimes.

What we have been presented with so far is a woman who historically appeared to be fairly well liked and respected by her colleagues (noting however that there are the text messages after the alleged crimes began which indicate some difficulties with the professional relationships). A woman who had worked at the same hospital for four years without apparent incident or complaint. A woman who one day in 2015 went to work as normal, and within 20 minutes of starting her shift, allegedly murdered a poorly newborn baby for the first time.

I think it is fair to say that everyone on here has at least a passing interest in true crime . We all probably know a great deal about serial killers and patterns of behaviour and escalation of crimes.

If LL is guilty, she will be one of the most prolific serial killers this country has ever seen. We all know that a serial killer doesn’t just become a serial killer one day. Even if a person has always had the urge to kill, they don’t go from 0 to 60 overnight. There are, in nearly all cases, common patterns of behaviour. It starts out with lesser crimes, and then escalates to some form of assault, and then to murder or AM.

Just to be clear, I know that crimes of passion do just happen out of the blue without necessarily any buildup in levels of aggression. For example, a couple where one has committed infidelity has an argument and the wronged party stabs the cheater during the ensuing argument in a fit of rage . I don’t think LL’s alleged crimes could be characterised as crimes of passion.

The absence to date of some sort of background narrative, or even some evidence which could contextualise the alleged crimes in terms of triggers for the behaviour (such as a period of financial difficulties, a breakdown of a romantic relationship, illness in a family member, other difficulties with family relationships, personal medical problems) is a concern.

JMO etc
 
I wanted to start a discussion about the fact that we have been given so little information about LL during the trial so far. It’s a bit long!

I have to say that I have a real concern with the lack of background information being presented, and how this will play with the jury. To be clear, I’m not talking about character evidence: I don’t need to know if she volunteered at an animal charity in her spare time, or always helped her elderly neighbour with her shopping (as random examples). And I’m not necessarily talking about evidence regarding her motive for committing these crimes, if guilty. Motive is obviously something that we all would like to know about because humans are curious, and we particularly want to know why someone has done a terrible thing. I accept that you don’t necessarily need evidence of motive in order to find someone guilty of murder. If I see an accused walk up to someone in the street and shoot them in the head, killing them, I would like to know why they did that, but I don’t need to know because there is no doubt that they did it. But motive can become more important where the evidence isn’t as direct as the example above, as it can, in my opinion, help a jury to feel more comfortable with delivering a guilty verdict.

What I am talking about in this case is more the absence of the background narrative: some (if not all) of the sequence of events leading to LL’s alleged crimes.

What we have been presented with so far is a woman who historically appeared to be fairly well liked and respected by her colleagues (noting however that there are the text messages after the alleged crimes began which indicate some difficulties with the professional relationships). A woman who had worked at the same hospital for four years without apparent incident or complaint. A woman who one day in 2015 went to work as normal, and within 20 minutes of starting her shift, allegedly murdered a poorly newborn baby for the first time.

I think it is fair to say that everyone on here has at least a passing interest in true crime . We all probably know a great deal about serial killers and patterns of behaviour and escalation of crimes.

If LL is guilty, she will be one of the most prolific serial killers this country has ever seen. We all know that a serial killer doesn’t just become a serial killer one day. Even if a person has always had the urge to kill, they don’t go from 0 to 60 overnight. There are, in nearly all cases, common patterns of behaviour. It starts out with lesser crimes, and then escalates to some form of assault, and then to murder or AM.

Just to be clear, I know that crimes of passion do just happen out of the blue without necessarily any buildup in levels of aggression. For example, a couple where one has committed infidelity has an argument and the wronged party stabs the cheater during the ensuing argument in a fit of rage . I don’t think LL’s alleged crimes could be characterised as crimes of passion.

The absence to date of some sort of background narrative, or even some evidence which could contextualise the alleged crimes in terms of triggers for the behaviour (such as a period of financial difficulties, a breakdown of a romantic relationship, illness in a family member, other difficulties with family relationships, personal medical problems) is a concern.

JMO etc
I keep thinking that all of this will come AFTER the prosecution have detailed the cases. Supplementary evidence is surely due to come eg colleagues testifying about LL specifically, rather than their particular involvement with a particular baby, as we have seen so far.

I assume both sides will wheel out a forensic psychiatrist to relay their analysis
 
Also, every time Myers goes for Evans' credibility (eg did it in opening and yesterday), I think of the phrase "a bad workman blames his tools".

Feels like "s**t deflection". Myers hasnt got any credible alternative explanations for what happened, so he goes for underminding the expert witness instead. To me it screams of the defence having no actual defence imo
 
I wanted to start a discussion about the fact that we have been given so little information about LL during the trial so far. It’s a bit long!

I have to say that I have a real concern with the lack of background information being presented, and how this will play with the jury. To be clear, I’m not talking about character evidence: I don’t need to know if she volunteered at an animal charity in her spare time, or always helped her elderly neighbour with her shopping (as random examples). And I’m not necessarily talking about evidence regarding her motive for committing these crimes, if guilty. Motive is obviously something that we all would like to know about because humans are curious, and we particularly want to know why someone has done a terrible thing. I accept that you don’t necessarily need evidence of motive in order to find someone guilty of murder. If I see an accused walk up to someone in the street and shoot them in the head, killing them, I would like to know why they did that, but I don’t need to know because there is no doubt that they did it. But motive can become more important where the evidence isn’t as direct as the example above, as it can, in my opinion, help a jury to feel more comfortable with delivering a guilty verdict.

What I am talking about in this case is more the absence of the background narrative: some (if not all) of the sequence of events leading to LL’s alleged crimes.

What we have been presented with so far is a woman who historically appeared to be fairly well liked and respected by her colleagues (noting however that there are the text messages after the alleged crimes began which indicate some difficulties with the professional relationships). A woman who had worked at the same hospital for four years without apparent incident or complaint. A woman who one day in 2015 went to work as normal, and within 20 minutes of starting her shift, allegedly murdered a poorly newborn baby for the first time.

I think it is fair to say that everyone on here has at least a passing interest in true crime . We all probably know a great deal about serial killers and patterns of behaviour and escalation of crimes.

If LL is guilty, she will be one of the most prolific serial killers this country has ever seen. We all know that a serial killer doesn’t just become a serial killer one day. Even if a person has always had the urge to kill, they don’t go from 0 to 60 overnight. There are, in nearly all cases, common patterns of behaviour. It starts out with lesser crimes, and then escalates to some form of assault, and then to murder or AM.

Just to be clear, I know that crimes of passion do just happen out of the blue without necessarily any buildup in levels of aggression. For example, a couple where one has committed infidelity has an argument and the wronged party stabs the cheater during the ensuing argument in a fit of rage . I don’t think LL’s alleged crimes could be characterised as crimes of passion.

The absence to date of some sort of background narrative, or even some evidence which could contextualise the alleged crimes in terms of triggers for the behaviour (such as a period of financial difficulties, a breakdown of a romantic relationship, illness in a family member, other difficulties with family relationships, personal medical problems) is a concern.

JMO etc
I'm not sure about this at all. Might it not unduly influence the jury? For example, you could be someone who has lots of issues & problems but is perfectly innocent of the crime and vice versa, living an apparently exemplary life but underneath a vicious psychopath.
 
I wanted to start a discussion about the fact that we have been given so little information about LL during the trial so far. It’s a bit long!

I have to say that I have a real concern with the lack of background information being presented, and how this will play with the jury. To be clear, I’m not talking about character evidence: I don’t need to know if she volunteered at an animal charity in her spare time, or always helped her elderly neighbour with her shopping (as random examples). And I’m not necessarily talking about evidence regarding her motive for committing these crimes, if guilty. Motive is obviously something that we all would like to know about because humans are curious, and we particularly want to know why someone has done a terrible thing. I accept that you don’t necessarily need evidence of motive in order to find someone guilty of murder. If I see an accused walk up to someone in the street and shoot them in the head, killing them, I would like to know why they did that, but I don’t need to know because there is no doubt that they did it. But motive can become more important where the evidence isn’t as direct as the example above, as it can, in my opinion, help a jury to feel more comfortable with delivering a guilty verdict.

What I am talking about in this case is more the absence of the background narrative: some (if not all) of the sequence of events leading to LL’s alleged crimes.

What we have been presented with so far is a woman who historically appeared to be fairly well liked and respected by her colleagues (noting however that there are the text messages after the alleged crimes began which indicate some difficulties with the professional relationships). A woman who had worked at the same hospital for four years without apparent incident or complaint. A woman who one day in 2015 went to work as normal, and within 20 minutes of starting her shift, allegedly murdered a poorly newborn baby for the first time.

I think it is fair to say that everyone on here has at least a passing interest in true crime . We all probably know a great deal about serial killers and patterns of behaviour and escalation of crimes.

If LL is guilty, she will be one of the most prolific serial killers this country has ever seen. We all know that a serial killer doesn’t just become a serial killer one day. Even if a person has always had the urge to kill, they don’t go from 0 to 60 overnight. There are, in nearly all cases, common patterns of behaviour. It starts out with lesser crimes, and then escalates to some form of assault, and then to murder or AM.

Just to be clear, I know that crimes of passion do just happen out of the blue without necessarily any buildup in levels of aggression. For example, a couple where one has committed infidelity has an argument and the wronged party stabs the cheater during the ensuing argument in a fit of rage . I don’t think LL’s alleged crimes could be characterised as crimes of passion.

The absence to date of some sort of background narrative, or even some evidence which could contextualise the alleged crimes in terms of triggers for the behaviour (such as a period of financial difficulties, a breakdown of a romantic relationship, illness in a family member, other difficulties with family relationships, personal medical problems) is a concern.

JMO etc
I have a suspicion - and it is ONLY MY OPINION - that she was possibly diagnosed with some kind of personality disorder long time ago (maybe in her teens) and was under a care of some therapist (but not sure about how long).

Her habit of writing notes (even a diary) about feelings and emotions is very telling.

Besides, it was written in her own text about parents who were very anxious when she left home town to study.

And we are talking about an ADULT daughter.

Well, that is my observation (not diagnosis of course).

JMO
 
Recap from yesterday, Thurs , Feb 9th:

[ these are yesterday's tweets, all posted together ]
A BABY girl was killed by an injection of air into her bloodstream, the murder trial of a nurse has heard.

It is alleged Lucy Letby, 33, murdered the premature-born infant at the fourth attempt by administering the fatal dose during a night shift at the Countess of Chester Hospital’s neonatal unit.

The death of Child I, who cannot be identified for legal reasons, in the early hours of October 23, 2015 followed sudden collapses on September 30, October 13 and 14.

On Thursday, February 9, retired consultant paediatrician Dr Dewi Evans gave expert evidence at Manchester Crown Court, in the trial's first day of evidence since the previous Friday.

He stated that, in his opinion, Child I had on the first three occasions been injected with air into her stomach via a feeding tube.

But an “extremely disturbing phenomenon” of Child I’s noted “relentless, loud” crying prior to her final collapse led him to believe a different method was used.


FIRST ALLEGED COLLAPSE:
The first collapse, he told the court, was “out of the blue”.

Dr Evans said: “She was entirely stable right up to the point of collapse.

“My opinion was that (Child I) had been subjected to an infusion of air. In other words, air had been injected into her stomach.

“That interferes with your ability to move your diaphragm up and down, and that interferes with your breathing.”

He said there was “striking evidence” from an abdominal X-ray which showed “lots of air”.

Dr Evans said he came to the same conclusion that Child I had suffered “splintering of the diaphragm” in the early hours of October 13.






On the following night shift he said her condition deteriorated again “as a result of some kind of event that had interfered with her breathing”.

In one report he prepared he wrote this collapse was “also suspicious and suggestive of inappropriate care, most likely due to the perpetrator injecting a large amount of air via the naso-gastric tube”.

He told the court an X-ray showed an “astonishingly large amount of air” in her stomach.

Dr Evans said Child I was again stable prior to a sudden deterioration shortly before midnight on October 22.

The court has heard Child I quickly recovered after medical staff gave her breathing support but less than an hour later she deteriorated again.

Nurse Ashleigh Hudson told jurors about Child I’s “relentless” and “very loud” crying from her incubator at just before midnight.

Dr Evans said: “Ashleigh Hudson’s evidence was very moving because nurses and doctors know what a normal cry sounds like.

“Babies will cry if they are hungry, or if you take a blood test because it hurts.

“This was very abnormal. A different kind of a cry. I interpreted it as the cry of a baby in pain and in severe distress.

“That is an extremely disturbing phenomenon. There was no obvious explanation why she was crying relentlessly and it was very loud.”

Asked by prosecutor Nick Johnson KC as to what his conclusion was for the cause of the fatal collapse, Dr Evans replied: “I think she was the victim of air being injected into her blood circulation. This probably explains her crying and distress, and the failure of the medical team second time round to save her life.”




Dr Evans agreed with Ben Myers KC, defending, that Child I had recurrent episodes of a swollen stomach and oxygen desaturations during her time at the unit.

But he disagreed with his suggestion that Child I was “in general a very poorly baby regardless of the events we are looking at”.

Dr Evans said he thought both collapses on the night shift of October 22/23 were due to injections of air which caused a blockage to the passage of blood.

He said he could not say how much, or how quickly, air was administered as there was “not a great deal of research” available on air embolisms in babies.

Dr Evans denied Mr Myers’s assertion that it was “utter guess work” on his part.


The expert said: “It is consistent with what has happened in previous cases here.”


 
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