UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #11

[katydid23]

that’s fair enough. I haven’t seen anything bitchy from her. No talking behind backs, no ostracism of other, no derogatory comments. Busybody I would agree with but that’s not a negative could be work orientated. The texting and use of tech I think means a preference for communication at a distance or lack of face to face high intensity coms which is normal. It’s the lack of face to face I am referring to It also means preference for low stimulation imo.

Lack of face to face? I've seen a lot of 'party' pictures of her, looking all dolled up' and out with friends, drinking and laughing. And she texts about fun events with others---like yoga class and tango class, and bowling. And she was planning a housewarming party for herself.

And I did see some kind of witchy, talking behind the back stuff in some texts. It wasn't all sweetness and light.

 

[notsure]

I agree with you that nurses and doctors will be able to control their emotions as part of their training and that it isn’t necessarily an indicator of hard heartedness.

My point was that in the absence of virtually any information about who LL is as a person, the jury may latch onto what few scraps of information they do get (such as a tearful outburst) and attach weight or importance to it, which may well not be justified , but I think it would be a fairly common response.

Exactly - people try to make a coherent story out of any scraps of info they get, often ignoring the bits that don't fit their preferred narrative.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Not sure if this has been previously mentioned or if even relevant, but from the map of the unit it looks like the drug cabinet is in nursery 1. Could this be relevant if LL is guilty, as to why she always wanted to be in that room?

thats an idea. Could it also be because she was in there on her own? Managing the babies suited to her more qualified skills? That cupboard is locked and I think a nurse senio to her was responsible for the keys to it.

Lack of face to face? I've seen a lot of 'party' pictures of her, looking all dolled up' and out with friends, drinking and laughing. And she texts about fun events with others---like yoga class and tango class, and bowling. And she was planning a housewarming party for herself.

And I did see some kind of witchy, talking behind the back stuff in some texts. It wasn't all sweetness and light.

direct conflict is my reference. Not friendly banter with close associates. It’s also her distance from people she doesn’t know very well that makes me think it And emphasis on professional appearances rather than warmth to strangers jmo.

any examples of witchy behind the back stuff would be interesting to see. I know she said in one com she thought it strange that a mum said she was glad she was responsible for her babies care. Just one example though.

 

[squish]

that’s fair enough. I haven’t seen anything bitchy from her. No talking behind backs, no ostracism of other, no derogatory comments. Busybody I would agree with but that’s not a negative could be work orientated. The texting and use of tech I think means a preference for communication at a distance or lack of face to face high intensity coms which is normal. It’s the lack of face to face I am referring to It also means preference for low stimulation imo.

The gossiping about the mother of a patient wearing a lacy dress and insinuating that these parents had just had sex was very bitchy and inappropriate.

She also told off a nurse for calling for help when one of Lucy's patents started struggling.

She also complains about others in her texts in a subtle, woe-is-me way, which comes across as manipulative.

 

[notsure]

Lack of face to face? I've seen a lot of 'party' pictures of her, looking all dolled up' and out with friends, drinking and laughing. And she texts about fun events with others---like yoga class and tango class, and bowling. And she was planning a housewarming party for herself.

And I did see some kind of witchy, talking behind the back stuff in some texts. It wasn't all sweetness and light.

Exactly - she enjoyed all the normal things that other young women enjoyed. Nothing unusual there.

 

[Sweeper2000]

The gossiping about the mother of a patient wearing a lacy dress and insinuating that these parents had just had sex was very bitchy and inappropriate.

She also told off a nurse for calling for help when one of Lucy's patents started struggling.

She also complains about others in her texts in a subtle, woe-is-me way, which comes across as manipulative.

i can’t remember the quote about the Lacy dress and sex?

can you quote it please

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

<modsnip> LL was working at the same hospital for something like 4 or 5 years before these alleged crimes . <modsnip: sub judice>

 

[squish]

i can’t remember the quote about the Lacy dress and sex?

can you quote it please

I don't have time to search for it, but it was fairly recently in one of her text message conversations with colleagues.

 

[katydid23]

Exactly - she enjoyed all the normal things that other young women enjoyed. Nothing unusual there.

Yes, I saw nothing abnormal about her fun social life at all. But I don't think it means anything, one way or another, in terms of guilt or innocence.

 

[katydid23]

i can’t remember the quote about the Lacy dress and sex?

can you quote it please

Dan O'Donoghue

@MrDanDonoghue


Messages now being shown to court from that night to a colleague, who wasn't on shift. Ms Letby messaged: 'Just went to tell baby's parents that transport coming...bedroom door answered after lots of what sounded like scrambling in tiny lacey dress hardly covering anything'


Letby messages a colleague to say that night had 'only 8 babies' in the unit, and there is a discussion over transporting a baby to Stoke.

Ms Letby messaged: 'Just went to tell baby's parents that transport coming...bedroom door answered after lots of what sounded like scrambling in tiny lacey dress hardly covering anything'

Colleague responded 'OMG'- several more messages of a social nature go back and forth. We're now approaching 22:30 on 22 October

She adds: "I think I need to see greys anatomy !!!" Later in the conversation, Letby messages to say Child I "had abdo scan that was fine".

 

[katydid23]

She did text a co-worker 'about certain staff' not pulling their weight at the hospital and said she reported them for it. So that could be a bit witchy and manipulative, perhaps.

And the 2nd tweet, it seems to me, shows that the doctor's wanted her to be more centered and to stop trying to 'prove herself.'

https://twitter.com/x/status/1621128711356710916

Court is also shown messages between Ms Letby and another colleague, who cannot be named for legal reasons. In these messages she says she spoke to a manager about certain staff 'not pulling their weight' at the hospital


Ms Letby said in that conversation that she was told Drs at the hospital 'speak very highly of her' and that she needs to be 'confident' in her role and not feel the need to prove herself

 

[Dotta]

i can’t remember the quote about the Lacy dress and sex?

can you quote it please

 

[mummyshark]

thats an idea. Could it also be because she was in there on her own? Managing the babies suited to her more qualified skills? That cupboard is locked and I think a nurse senio to her was responsible for the keys to it.

It's been said that the keys were handed around between nurses without a record kept of who had them.

 

[Tortoise]

Here's some talking about staff behind their back, and complaining about being contacted when she's off shift while contacting staff off-shift herself.

[dates in brackets added by me]

2:34pm

Intelligence analyst Kate Tyndall has returned to talk the court through events for Child J, who was born at 3pm on October 31, 2015, weighing 3lb 12oz.


[10 Nov]
The same day, Letby messages a colleague saying "It's chaos here" and she had had a row with another colleague.

Letby sends a lengthy message to her colleague explaining why the unit was 'chaos' and why she had a disagreement with a colleague, adding staff were "peeing her off".
Her colleague replies: "Nothing like a bit of team spirit eh! x"
Letby apologises for her rant, saying: "Just really gets me down sometimes and some...want the easy life"

[16 Nov]
Letby asks a colleague on November 16 about how often a procedure for the Broviac line for Child J needed to be carried out. She receives a reply that it is carried out weekly.

[25 Nov]
Letby says she had three missed calls on November 25, having been to Las Iguanas and was at salsa, saying no-one at the unit knew how to administer immunoglobin, and they rang her. Her colleague sympathises, saying they should not be ringing staff not on duty, but should be contacting Liverpool Women's Hospital first.


[26 Nov]
A colleague messages Letby at 5.16pm: "U well rested for work? x"
Letby replies: "Yep I've had a chilled day and slept well..."
She adds: "Ready to face anything" with a strongarm emoji, before discussing about being contacted the previous night, and querying why she had been contacted when staff on duty had other lines of enquiry, such as Liverpool Women's Hospital or the transfusion department.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Friday, February 10

 

[Tortoise]

I assumed it included all doctors and nurses whether they were still there or not but don't quote me on that lol

Yes it applies to all witnesses, whether they still work at the hospital or not.

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

Poor skill mix does not mean poor skill. It is not derogatory in any way. It means the proportion of qualified/experienced nurses to junior nursers or nursery nurses is not adequate.
JMO

I agree, I took it to mean that you might have excellent nurses of a certain level who can brilliantly start NG feeds for a baby on shift, but no one on that shift knows how to administer immunoglobulin so they have to call off duty staff (to use the recent example from baby J , I think ).

 

[esther43]

Is this what this is, though? I'm not sure; these witnesses are not anonymous as their names are provided to the court. We know that to be the case as LL started crying when he stated his name.

In addition, I cannot see how the criteria required for an anonymity order to be made are fulfilled in this case. Those being;

• Condition A: the proposed order is necessary-
  
  1. in order to protect the safety of the witness or another person or to prevent any serious damage to property, or
  2. in order to prevent real harm to the public interest (whether affecting the carrying on of any activities in the public interest or the safety of a person involved in carrying on such activities, or otherwise).
• Condition B: having regard to all the circumstances, the effect of the proposed order would be consistent with the defendant receiving a fair trial.
• Condition C: the importance of the witness's testimony is such that in the interests of justice the witness ought to testify and-
  
  1. the witness would not testify if the proposed order were not made, or
  2. there would be real harm to the public interest if the witness were to testify without the proposed order being made.

I don't believe that any of the witnesses for whom their names cannot be published meet this criteria. There is virtually no chance that they are under any threat to their safety and in the absence of that then what danger is there of them being named in the press which represent "real harm to the public interest"? As I said, if that were the case then they wouldn't be names at all.

This is some sort of reporting restriction, imo, rather than a witness protection order under that section.

I think it's likely to be related to identification of victims in some estric way or, perhaps, in order not to prejudice any further related legal cases as I think we can be sure that there are a raft of cases which will be heard after the conclusion of this one. We already know that the parents are lawyered-up for civil cases and I think there is a likelihood of possible further criminal cases given what has gone on at this hospital.

I wouldn't at all be surprised if she was seeing someone much older. It's really not that unusual these days for young women, especially educated successful ones with good careers, to date men a lot older. Having been privileged to have been afforded the opportunity to personally "research" the phenomenon extensively over recent years I can confirm that it's a lot more common than many people may realise!

If we are to accept that the three bed house, the rapid career progression and what seems to be a lot of overtime, equates to her trying to set herself up with a comfortable life in which to start a family then dating an older doctor would definitely fit with that. Indeed, I think I'd go as far as to say that I'd be surprised if she were dating a guy her own age.

Also, for her it would be much easier from the point of view of her family as there is a significant age difference (17 years) between her parents so she wouldn't be getting the disapproval from parents, siblings, etc. I would not be surprised if she was dating someone well into his 40's - maybe even older but that might start to conflict with the plan to have a family.

LL appears to have very clearly defined life goals, from what we can deduce from what we know of her, which, imo, makes it even more bizarre to me if she's actually guilty of all this.

But, yeah, I think that this guy is someone who is of great significance to LL.

Out of interest was it definitely a consultant or was it a reg that required anonymity?

 

[Dotta]

Out of interest was it definitely a consultant or was it a reg that required anonymity?

It is the same person!
Once a reg in LL's time in hospital
Now a consultant after almost a decade

 

[Sweeper2000]

Out of interest was it definitely a consultant or was it a reg that required anonymity?

A reg.

 

[Dotta]

Not sure if this has been previously mentioned or if even relevant, but from the map of the unit it looks like the drug cabinet is in nursery 1. Could this be relevant if LL is guilty, as to why she always wanted to be in that room?

This unit looks extremely packed, cluttered and claustrophobic.
JMO