UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #14

[Tortoise]

I think we have seen some failings. Whether they contributed to the conditions of the baby remains for the defense to prove. But they are failings none the less.

-Baby G was left behind a screen with their monitor turned off.
-Several parents have complained about lack of hand washing.
- Some parents that experienced care at another hospital found Countess wasn't as good.
- Baby D's mother was left 48 hours after their waters burst before delivery which increases risk of infection and is outside guidelines.
- two parents felt dissuaded from having post mortems when guidelines should have been they had them.
- no factor ready for baby N who they knew would be hamaophilic.
- butterfly needle left inside baby H
- Child K received antibiotics 2.5 hours after birth when it should have been in the first hour.

I know baby E didn't have a post-mortem, which was the second one?

 

[katydid23]

To be fair, I've had colleagues who always want to be in ITU!

I can see that, it makes sense. I am sure it is more challenging and interesting.

And yet it does bother me a bit that LL found it 'boring' to spend time with the healthier babies. I say that because it makes it seem like she didn't like or appreciate babies and the love they represent.

I think most people feel an automatic connection or bond with the innocence of tiny infants. Their vulnerability and sweetness is so evident. It can be wonderful to just cuddle and care for a tiny baby.

I'd think that after LL had to see the sudden deaths or collapses of her prior patients, she might appreciate some quality time with some stable healthy babies to heal herself a bit. So it is weird to me that she is always in such a hurry to avoid that experience.

I'm not saying it makes her guilty of anything. I just find it odd.

 

[katydid23]

I don’t see anything suspicious about this. To me, I see it like a surgeon wanting to always be operating , not doing mainly oral checkups in clinic of patients who have had surgery.

True, but what if a surgeon had a run of bad luck, and several of his routine surgeries suddenly ended in unexplained deaths?

Might he then want a short break from doing operations while he tried to figure out what happened? Maybe do the rounds with the recovering patients for a change of scenery while he himself recovered?

 

[esther43]

I still wouldn’t put money on her giving evidence - I’m in two minds about it.
I was thinking back to her first bail application years ago and her saying through her solicitor that she wanted this case dealt with “ as soon as possible “
And here we are literally years later.

Indeed here we are! I am 50/50 on whether she will take the stand, think it will depend on whether Myers can get the court to disregard adverse inference on medical grounds. Because staying silent and not justifying why you are not giving evidence would likely be held against her.
Weirdly, if she wants a waver, it seems a psychological assessment will be required to justify that.

"Where the defence wish to avoid an adverse inference being drawn against a defendant who does not give evidence, they will have to show that the defendant has a particular physical or mental condition and that this condition makes it undesirable for them to give evidence. This will almost certainly require expert evidence to be produced to demonstrate what the defendant’s condition is and why it would be undesirable for them to give evidence."

 

[katydid23]

Since some procedures are unavoidable, many of us learn to do them in a way that is as "least traumatic" as possible. I like working with intensive care/high dependency babies in part because their experience is everything to me. I provide the baby with as much positive touch that is "for the baby" as possible (not just procedural touch), by advocating for lots of parental holding, as well as using my hands to respond to the baby's cues while doing routine care giving. This is a learned skill, and it's not necessarily easy to come by. I also don't want to turn unpleasant procedures over to someone else, because in typical control freak ICU nurse fashion, I know I can do what needs to be done either in the least painful way possible, or even in a way that is comfortable and allows the baby to remain quietly alert (my preference for the baby). Most of us who get good at necessary procedures do so because we are invested in the baby's experience. I've done my job well when I am doing something *for* and *with* a baby instead of doing something *to* a baby.

Now I'm not saying that LL had these goals when she complained it was boring to be feeding babies, and personally I think it's immature to argue about your assignments, but liking babies and respecting them as people is not at odds with delivering intensive care.

I agree with everything you say. One of my little triumphs was doing a heelprick with the baby barely noticing. Always felt very proud of that.
You learn how to do what are basically unpleasant things in a professional manner, don't you. In the end, these things need to be done by somebody in the baby's interests.

I love and appreciate you both for that kind of care. Well Done.

​

​

 

[Jazmania]

I don't think the prosecution is introducing this evidence for incriminatory effect, to show guilt. There is nothing incriminating in working in an intensive care unit by itself.

I believe it is to show character evidence, how she was often non-compliant, didn't care for management, and constantly sought stimulation or preferred high-risk situations. I'll call it ingredients.

JMO

And also displays a more than large degree of arrogance and believing her needs take precedence

 

[LorriB]

I know baby E didn't have a post-mortem, which was the second one?

Yes sorry you're right, it was just E. I thought I saw it written twice.

 

[Dotta]

I don't think the prosecution is introducing this evidence for incriminatory effect, to show guilt. There is nothing incriminating in working in an intensive care unit by itself.

I believe it is to show character evidence, how she was often non-compliant, didn't care for management, and constantly sought stimulation or preferred high-risk situations. I'll call it ingredients.

JMO

Holistic approach.

Every detail matters.
All elements are interconnected and paint the whole picture.

JMO

 

[Tortoise]

Will we find out any context at all regarding the other deaths on the unit in the time period? Dr Evans was asked to look at 30 odd cases, presumably containing all deaths within that. Is the situation such that ALL unexplained collapses and deaths had LL as the common denominator, or could it be that LL was involved in, say, 80% of them and those are included in this trial?

I feel like I’ve been desperate for this context from the outset, and it’s always in the back of my mind.

I have a feeling this must have been explained to the jury when Dr Evans gave evidence but it just didn't make the reporting.

I don't think they would leave the jury guessing, and secondly it would be a key area for the defence to focus on, and they don't appear to have raised it as an issue.

Also, I don't see the purpose in Dr Evans saying the name Lucy Letby meant nothing to him, if there were other suspicious deaths or events she hasn't been charged with.

It's just not going to happen that the police pass a file to the crown prosecution service, charges are laid, and the defence is instructed to represent the accused, while all of them know there is this huge anomaly of other suspicious deaths that can't be attributed to the accused. She has a very successful barrister and I will go out on a limb to say this is one issue, if it existed, that would lead to the prosecution falling at the first hurdle and failing to meet its charging threshold.

JMO

 

[LorriB]

Will we find out any context at all regarding the other deaths on the unit in the time period? Dr Evans was asked to look at 30 odd cases, presumably containing all deaths within that. Is the situation such that ALL unexplained collapses and deaths had LL as the common denominator, or could it be that LL was involved in, say, 80% of them and those are included in this trial?

I feel like I’ve been desperate for this context from the outset, and it’s always in the back of my mind.

JMO But I wouldn't be surprised to see some expert statistical analysis bought in on this very subject. What percent was LL involved in? What percent would an average nurse working similar hours at a similar band be involved in? How unlikely is it to occur by chance? Was there statistically a large increase in collapses taking into account things like numbers of births and any uplifting trends at a regional level? How many collapses of unknown cause occur typically in each gestational? And so on...

All very much what I'm wanting to understand more.

 

[esther43]

Those earliest hours, days and months are called "golden".

The Golden Hour & Breastfeeding | Seton Medical Center Harker Heights

The first hour after birth when a mother has uninterrupted skin-to-skin contact with her newborn is referred to as the “golden hour.” This period of time is critical for a newborn baby who spent the past nine months in a controlled environment. The golden hour helps regulate the baby's...

setonharkerheights.net

Those earliest hours, days and months are called "golden".

The bond is forming.
Which lasts for lifetime.

The Golden Hour & Breastfeeding | Seton Medical Center Harker Heights

The first hour after birth when a mother has uninterrupted skin-to-skin contact with her newborn is referred to as the “golden hour.” This period of time is critical for a newborn baby who spent the past nine months in a controlled environment. The golden hour helps regulate the baby's...

setonharkerheights.net

JMO But I wouldn't be surprised to see some expert statistical analysis bought in on this very subject. What percent was LL involved in? What percent would an average nurse working similar hours at a similar band be involved in? How unlikely is it to occur by chance? Was there statistically a large increase in collapses taking into account things like numbers of births and any uplifting trends at a regional level? How many collapses of unknown cause occur typically in each gestational? And so on...

All very much what I'm wanting to understand more.

 

[esther43]

Its alleged that LL was working on all 22 occasions when the babies were thought to have come to harm. The maximum number of deaths any other member of staff was present for was 7.

 

[Tortoise]

Its alleged that LL was working on all 22 occasions when the babies were thought to have come to harm. The maximum number of deaths any other member of staff was present for was 7.

here's the quote, it wasn't deaths

There are "many events" that will mirror the counts in the indictment, that the jury will hear, the prosecution tells the court.

A chart is displayed to the jury about the presence of staff on duty at the time the babies were "attacked", with Letby present for all 24 incidents listed between 2015 and 2016.

The majority of incidents are at night-time. No other member of registered nurse and/or nursery nurse staff is present for more than a total of seven incidents.

Recap: Prosecution opens trial of Lucy Letby accused of Countess of Chester Hospital baby murders

THE trial of former Countess of Chester Hospital nurse Lucy Letby, who is accused of multiple baby murders, is due to finalise its jury and hear…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[esther43]

here's the quote, it wasn't deaths

There are "many events" that will mirror the counts in the indictment, that the jury will hear, the prosecution tells the court.

A chart is displayed to the jury about the presence of staff on duty at the time the babies were "attacked", with Letby present for all 24 incidents listed between 2015 and 2016.

The majority of incidents are at night-time. No other member of registered nurse and/or nursery nurse staff is present for more than a total of seven incidents.

Recap: Prosecution opens trial of Lucy Letby accused of Countess of Chester Hospital baby murders

THE trial of former Countess of Chester Hospital nurse Lucy Letby, who is accused of multiple baby murders, is due to finalise its jury and hear…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

You are absolutely right. My bad. TY Tortoise.

 

[ColourPurple]

JMO But I wouldn't be surprised to see some expert statistical analysis bought in on this very subject. What percent was LL involved in? What percent would an average nurse working similar hours at a similar band be involved in? How unlikely is it to occur by chance? Was there statistically a large increase in collapses taking into account things like numbers of births and any uplifting trends at a regional level? How many collapses of unknown cause occur typically in each gestational? And so on...

All very much what I'm wanting to understand more.

Why just look at statistical analysis that includes what percentage of collapses LL was present at, and what percentage a nurse working similar hours would be present at, and how unlikely it is to occur by chance etc. though? LL isn't in the dock purely because she happened to be on shift for the collapses. She was also often alone with the babies right before the collapses, even when they weren't her designated babies.

Then there are all the repeated patterns, like the parents just having left, a designated nurse just having left. So are they also going to include statistical analysis of how likely it is in a 24 hour period that a baby would only collapse in the few minutes after their designated nurse left for a break, or how likely it is that a baby would only collapse in the short time their parents left them, after having been by their side for hours? etc etc

 

[Marantz4250b]

I still wouldn’t put money on her giving evidence - I’m in two minds about it.
I was thinking back to her first bail application years ago and her saying through her solicitor that she wanted this case dealt with “ as soon as possible “
And here we are literally years later.

I don't think she will. Obviously we don't know much about her but from what Myers said right at the start I doubt she's in any state. She'd be torn apart by the prosecution, guilty or innocent.

 

[esther43]

Why just look at statistical analysis that includes what percentage of collapses LL was present at, and what percentage a nurse working similar hours would be present at, and how unlikely it is to occur by chance etc. though? LL ism't in the dock purely because she happened to be on shift for the collapses. She was also often alone with the babies right before the collapses, even when they weren't her designated babies.

Then there are all the repeated patterns, like the parents just having left, a designated nurse just having left. So are they also going to include statisitical analysis of how likely it is in a 24 hour period that a baby would only collapse in the few minutes after their designated nurse left for a break, or how likely it is that a baby would only collapse in the short time their parents left them, after having been by their side for hours? etc etc

I get your frustration because I have felt like this at certain points in the trial. E.g chances of the baby having a spontaneous GI bleed, show us the stats! We've had a lot of drs try to say in various ways that particular things are not typical or normal but that is not enough for some people, some people want hard statistics.
I'm guessing that if any different opinions get presented by the defence, the prosecution will request probability in their cross examination?

 

[LorriB]

Why just look at statistical analysis that includes what percentage of collapses LL was present at, and what percentage a nurse working similar hours would be present at, and how unlikely it is to occur by chance etc. though? LL isn't in the dock purely because she happened to be on shift for the collapses. She was also often alone with the babies right before the collapses, even when they weren't her designated babies.

Then there are all the repeated patterns, like the parents just having left, a designated nurse just having left. So are they also going to include statistical analysis of how likely it is in a 24 hour period that a baby would only collapse in the few minutes after their designated nurse left for a break, or how likely it is that a baby would only collapse in the short time their parents left them, after having been by their side for hours? etc etc

I'm very aware the opening posts say nobody is a statistician here so we shouldn't discuss statistical probability. I think it's something I want to know more about and hope experts are bought in. JMO

 

[WaxLyrical]

Speaking of statistics. I’ve never really thought about it before but from Baby G onwards, it was five girls in a row, then six boys in a row from Baby L to Q.

 

[Imogenia]

I don't think she will. Obviously we don't know much about her but from what Myers said right at the start I doubt she's in any state. She'd be torn apart by the prosecution, guilty or innocent.

You could be right. However, if I were in such a situation, and believed that I had done nothing wrong, I would never forgive myself for not speaking out when I had the chance. Clever questioners might attempt to tear me apart, but I would keep stating the truth. It would not be remotely easy, but silence would be far more dangerous, if one is risking a lifetime in prison.