UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #2

[Marantz4250b]

I'm not sure how anything we know "proves" or disproves anything at the minute.

Comparing the number of babies that survived when LL was on duty would be about as useful as counting how many young women managed to walk past Peter Sutcliffe without getting killed.

I hope for everyone concerned there is the evidence to allow the Jury to make a sound decision.

I also hope the the Prosecution case starts soon and is in the main published as I'm really starting to "struggle" with this thread and I can't say I've felt that way before.

Not if the evidence used against Sutcliffe was intended to demonstrate the statistical likelihood of him murdering a particular young woman, surely?

 

[Marantz4250b]

rsbm

I tend to agree, but it does make you wonder what the police were looking for when they dug up her garden. Do we know if they found or removed any evidence as a result of that search?

I'm not convinced that they ever "dug up" her garden. The media said they did but they didn't publish any photos of it. They managed to publish lots of photos of her house being searched but none of them digging up her garden.

They certainly seemed to have removed quite a substantial amount of material. Whether any of it turned out to be "evidence" of anything at all will remain to be seen.

 

[JosieJo]

Not if the evidence used against Sutcliffe was intended to demonstrate the statistical likelihood of him murdering a particular young woman, surely?

My point was 100 women could walk safely past him alone in the dark ..even 100 women "of his type" ...its never going to tell us he didn't kill .

 

[Whitehall 1212]

I'm utterly fascinated as to what she's like, to be totally honest. I've just seen that one of the FB groups has a guy on it who appears to know her very well - I rarely look at FB anymore and have taken the app off my phone as it's becoming a bit of a cesspit in general, quite honestly. His posts tend to align with everything else that's been said about her - essentially, that she's totally lovely, very devoted to her job and wouldn't hurt a fly.

The theory that something happened in her life to send her over the edge and start murdering patients has been mentioned on here, and elsewhere, many times and I don't buy it, quite frankly. People who are otherwise "normal" simply do not act like this. Everyone goes through breakups, bereavements and medical dramas and they don't end up murdering children because of them. If these things were a trigger for serial murder then the human race would have become extinct thousands of years ago. It might be a plausible theory if LL had had a horrendously abusive childhood and was already mentally unhinged but everything we know about her suggests otherwise. She just seems to be entirely normal. Boringly normal, if you will.

I get the same vibe about her.

A young lass who doesn't take herself too seriously, likes a laugh, can be a bit awkward, sometimes shy, dedicated and with her heart in the right place.

Yet, the very darkest are masterful in deceit and manipulation. They have a public persona, which lacks depth and a deeply private one which they feed off for sustenance.

So, like many, I guess, this strikes at all we hold onto in a bad world...that there are kind, loving, professional and dedicated human beings who give their everything to the sickest babies and the most fearful parents.

To have to face the possible reality that those we see as the very best could in fact be the very worst can really shake one's faith in humanity to the absolute core.

All I wish for is that LL receives an absolutely thorough and fair trial and that the jury ultimately deliver the correct verdict.

For us it's a brief moment in time. For all the families involved and for LL herself it's a life sentence of grief and of 'what might have been'.....whatever the outcome.

 

[JuicyLucy]

Thanks @JuicyLucy,

I've seen it before but never paid much attention to the the content.

What I find unusual is that all the officers searching are in uniform and there doesn't appear to be a detective or forensic officer in sight.

Bear in mind that it took a whole year from when the police were notified before they arrested LL.

This may have been because the police delayed the arrest, because even though they had enough 'reasonable suspicion' to arrest earlier they wanted to get most of their ducks in a row before interviewing. Or they took a year to find enough suspicion to arrest LL.....it doesn't need much!

If they had reasonable suspicion of murder/attempted murder earlier they can't have been too concerned about losing evidence from both houses, a car and garden, because with arrest comes various powers and potential powers of search. It makes me think that no drugs, syringes, documents etc were found to be missing from the hospital.

Unless the uniformed officers were a specialist police search team (PolSA) who are trained in finding obscure objects in obscure places then it looks like a gaggle of uniformed officers sent to do the best on behalf of the CID.

In all the photos there is not one that shows an officer carrying an evidence bag, which is what any items of interest will be placed in, documented fully and sealed in situ.

Searches in serious cases would usually have a photographer, often doubling as scenes of crime, to photograph/video the item in situ before removing it into the evidence bag.

It all looks like a bit of an afterthought.....as though they didn't really expect to find anything of evidential value!

Don't be offended @Whitehall 1212 but... is it possible this was basically a performative exercise? I'm no expert, but when I saw those pictures of PCs wearing nitrile gloves with bare arms, and cramming their faces up against the top of drainpipes, even I knew this wasn't a very forensically meticulous search.

And what a lot of pictures there are, all taken the morning of her first arrest, 3 July 2018, by a Liverpool-based professional photographer, according to the captions, who I guess... just happened to be passing. Just two days later on 5 July, the tabloids identified her, perhaps based on the address that was being so ostentatiously searched, and had scraped her facebook for the candid pictures.

So is it possible that the main goal of searching in a way that would obviously attract media attention was not to 'dig up the garden' but more in the hope of acquiring additional witness testimony from colleagues, friends or former users of the neonatal unit, when the story inevitably got out?

Or is that too cynical?

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Don't be offended @Whitehall 1212 but... is it possible this was basically a performative exercise? I'm no expert, but when I saw those pictures of PCs wearing nitrile gloves with bare arms, and cramming their faces up against the top of drainpipes, even I knew this wasn't a very forensically meticulous search.

And what a lot of pictures there are, all taken the morning of her first arrest, 3 July 2018, by a Liverpool-based professional photographer, according to the captions, who I guess... just happened to be passing. Just two days later on 5 July, the tabloids identified her, perhaps based on the address that was being so ostentatiously searched, and had scraped her facebook for the candid pictures.

So is it possible that the main goal of searching in a way that would obviously attract media attention was not to 'dig up the garden' but more in the hope of acquiring additional witness testimony from colleagues, friends or former users of the neonatal unit, when the story inevitably got out?

Or is that too cynical?

Why would I be offended? Not on this thread.....it's a friendly one

My thoughts......LL arrested on 3rd July 2018 after being suspended under investigation by the police, since May 2017 and I believe living with her parents in Hereford. The last alleged offence was 25th July 2016.....over 2 years before

Now is there any real forensic opportunity with the search? I believe it would be somewhat limited, even if she is culpable.

The neighbours in Chester, Hereford or a friendly upstanding laughing policeman must have tipped the wink to the press. The neighbours must have an inkling that she had been suspended and maybe what for..,,,such new travels very fast, particulalrly where the NHS is concerned....someone always knows someone!

Maybe the police were going through the motions. Not to search could raise questions from the defence. The CPIA 1986 states that an investigator should pursue all reasonable lines of enquiry, whether these point towards or away from the suspect.

It would be somewhat conspiratorial to suggest that the police used the search as a smokescreen to divert attention from a search elsewhere at the same time. I can't see the need for that in such an investigation, but it's been done before.

The police would have identified family/friends/colleagues/acquaintances months before. They may have already taken formal statements from them.

The search did look laughable though. A professional approach to search is for officers to work in pairs. One searches whilst the other is the eyes/brains, who has a heliview, and oversight. He/she directs the searcher where to search in a methodical way to make sure every inch is checked. Yer man up the ladder looking down the drainpipe was very much alone.

All very odd!

 

[cardiologist4976257]

I've been reading through some news archives on LL and two things I noticed:

-she is referred to as a 'Ms' across multiple news sources including the BBC. I'm taking that as LL is a divorced woman?

-"she is believed to live alone at the property with her two cats" - the Press's sly hint that a breakup sent her coo-coo?

 

[Sarahlou]

I've been reading through some news archives on LL and two things I noticed:

-she is referred to as a 'Ms' across multiple news sources including the BBC. I'm taking that as LL is a divorced woman?

-"she is believed to live alone at the property with her two cats" - the Press's sly hint that a breakup sent her coo-coo?

Ms is used when someone doesn't want to use Miss or Mrs. I don't think she has ever been married.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

-she is referred to as a 'Ms' across multiple news sources including the BBC. I'm taking that as LL is a divorced woman?

'Ms' is often the default nomenclature used my MSM. An abbreviated form of 'Mistress'. It gives no indication of previous marriage or otherwise.

"she is believed to live alone at the property with her two cats" - the Press's sly hint that a breakup sent her coo-coo?

That's your interpretation. That's not what crossed my mind, which was that she was fond of animals, which was a positive outlook on her personality.

 

[JosieJo]

I've been reading through some news archives on LL and two things I noticed:

-she is referred to as a 'Ms' across multiple news sources including the BBC. I'm taking that as LL is a divorced woman?

-"she is believed to live alone at the property with her two cats" - the Press's sly hint that a breakup sent her coo-coo?

I agree the mention of the cats was deliberate

"a woman who has a lot of cats, especially a woman who lives alone and is considered to be slightly strange:"

cat lady

1. a woman who has a lot of cats, especially a woman who lives alone and is…

dictionary.cambridge.org

 

[MsBetsy]

Did they dig up her garden? If they did then they must have been looking for something specific which they believed could be found at the point of their focus.

Items were apparently taken from the house. There are MSM photos (Daily Mail all over it) that confirm it....so it must be true....not just the officers empty lunchbox!

Do police normally set up an evidence tent while conducting a search? In the US I have only seen them when they find a body.
Also, is it routine to have mobile crime labs on site or do they call them in once they have found forensic evidence?

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Do police normally set up an evidence tent while conducting a search? In the US I have only seen them when they find a body.
Also, is it routine to have mobile crime labs on site or do they call them in once they have found forensic evidence?

In this example the tent provides an 'operational base' for those involved in the search, a place to brief/debrief officers, storage of search kit that may be needed and maybe storage of some personal kit.

This would afford protection from the elements and limit the introduction of external debris/items into the house, garage or garden

LL's house, garage, garden and parents house were not 'crime scenes'. They were being searched in an effort to secure any evidence that may support LL's involvement or point away from her involvement.

Full crime scene investigation in the UK would look very different to this.

Bodies/body parts found at crime scenes would be seen in situ by the forensic pathologist and then recovered to the mortuary for full post mortem/examination.

Other evidence would be recovered forensically and then sent to a forensic science laboratory for various forensic tests as requested by the Senior Investigating Officer.

 

[gill1109]

In the case of Lucia de Berk: the police searched her home. They found some aspirins or similar, hospital property. They found a couple of empty syringes (without needles). Lucia had brought them home so her daughter could show them at school “show and tell: my mum is a nurse’. They found two Stephen King horror crime novels, apparently taken from the prison hospital library at the prison hospital where Lucia had previously worked. She is claimed to have stolen them. The prison hospital librarian has declared under oath that they were not stolen. They took her diary, in which she wrote about her “terrible secret compulsion”. In court she explained that she liked to read the Tarot for terminally ill elderly patients, she felt it was therapeutic though she knew it was terribly unprofessional.

 

[JuicyLucy]

'Ms' is often the default nomenclature used my MSM. An abbreviated form of 'Mistress'. It gives no indication of previous marriage or otherwise.

When people ask me if I'm a 'Miss' or a 'Mrs', I always say 'Ms'. I regard it as an abbreviation of 'Mind your own business'.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

When people ask me if I'm a 'Miss' or a 'Mrs', I always say 'Ms'. I regard it as an abbreviation of 'Mind your own business'.

Good on you.....take no prisoners @JuicyLucy

If anyone asks if you have dogs or cats just say a Boa Constrictor....that you don't feed often enough....similarly means MYOB

 

[Marantz4250b]

Did they dig up her garden? If they did then they must have been looking for something specific which they believed could be found at the point of their focus.

Items were apparently taken from the house. There are MSM photos (Daily Mail all over it) that confirm it....so it must be true....not just the officers empty lunchbox!

If they did "dig up her garden" (and I'm not convinced that they did) might it just have been the case that it was something the police would do as a matter of course in an investigation of this nature? I'm not suggesting that it would be routine to dig up an entire garden but if you are searching a property in relation to a series of exceptionally serious offences and you perhaps noticed some areas of recently turned over soil then it may be reasonable to dig in those locations?

 

[Marantz4250b]

The search did look laughable though. A professional approach to search is for officers to work in pairs. One searches whilst the other is the eyes/brains, who has a heliview, and oversight. He/she directs the searcher where to search in a methodical way to make sure every inch is checked. Yer man up the ladder looking down the drainpipe was very much alone.

All very odd!

Is it reasonable to think that the search of her gaff, with all its attendant press activity, was to divert attention from the more important search at her parents home in Hereford? She was actually living there, after all, and not in the Chester property.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Is it reasonable to think that the search of her gaff, with all its attendant press activity, was to divert attention from the more important search at her parents home in Hereford? She was actually living there, after all, and not in the Chester property.

Unlikely. If anything I would say that if LL has committed these offences then the greater likelihood is that any evidence not disposed of more permanently would be found at her home, in her car or work locker.

If the circumstances were that the police required a search warrant from a magistrate to search the parents address they would have needed some evidence of what they were looking for and why they believed it may be found at LL's parents address. After all I assume she does not have lawful control of the property....as it is where her parents live.

The search authorised for her parents property may have been limited to the room where LL slept and any communal areas.....not the parents bedroom. The search would probably have been less intrusive.

The statutory powers of the police to search people, vehicles and premises is provided for in various legislative acts which may or may not be applicable depending on the specific circumstances.

Ultimately, an application for a search warrant from a magistrate is always available. It may not be granted though.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Excellent info, most informative!

 

[Marantz4250b]

Ultimately, an application for a search warrant from a magistrate is always available. It may not be granted though.

It's a bit of a tangent but, in your experience, how often is it that Mags refuse a warrant? I'm guessing it's pretty rare?