UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #2

[Whitehall 1212]

If they did "dig up her garden" (and I'm not convinced that they did) might it just have been the case that it was something the police would do as a matter of course in an investigation of this nature? I'm not suggesting that it would be routine to dig up an entire garden but if you are searching a property in relation to a series of exceptionally serious offences and you perhaps noticed some areas of recently turned over soil then it may be reasonable to dig in those locations?

A search has to be focused and proportionate. It can't be a 'fishing trip' to see what can be found.

A section 18 PACE search 1984 of premises after arrest has to be authorised by an officer of at least Inspector rank. It's restrictions include, but are not limited to search for evidence that relates to:

1. The offence
2. Some other indictable offence which is connected with or similar to that offence

The offences in this case being murder and attempted murder.

Ripping up floorboards, dismantling walls and digging up gardens etc would need to be proportionate to the offence and items being sought. I would hope for some indicator of previous activity in a particular area....not a tear everything down approach (drug dealers excluded) would be implemented.

Your consideration of soil obviously recently turned over would be entirely proportionate.

Ground penetrating radar and RAF photographic intelligence toys have been used in some cases to identify areas to search.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

It's a bit of a tangent but, in your experience, how often is it that Mags refuse a warrant? I'm guessing it's pretty rare?

My experience is standing in chambers, swearing the oath on the bible, making my request with supporting reasons and then being questioned mercilessly about the evidence, provisions for children which may be at the address to the impact on the local community and any possible disorder as a result.

I'll say that I never had one refused but I had to earn it and do my homework before I went in so I didn't look like a muppet.

Ultimately, judges, magistrates and the CPS aren't the police, who may sometimes be a bit too keen and interpret the law incorrectly - e.g. covid laws.

They are on the side of what the law states and to ensure that it is interpreted and applied proportionately and lawfully. Long may it be so.

 

[Marantz4250b]

A search has to be focused and proportionate. It can't be a 'fishing trip' to see what can be found.

A section 18 PACE search 1984 of premises after arrest has to be authorised by an officer of at least Inspector rank. It's restrictions include, but are not limited to search for evidence that relates to:

1. The offence
2. Some other indictable offence which is connected with or similar to that offence

The offences in this case being murder and attempted murder.

Ripping up floorboards, dismantling walls and digging up gardens etc would need to be proportionate to the offence and items being sought. I would hope for some indicator of previous activity in a particular area....not a tear everything down approach (drug dealers excluded) would be implemented.

Your consideration of soil obviously recently turned over would be entirely proportionate.

Ground penetrating radar and RAF photographic intelligence toys have been used in some cases to identify areas to search.

Excellent info, again many thanks.

With reference to the highlighted point; given the reports, the comments on here (including from your good self), and the photos, the search of her Chester property gives the distinct feeling as to it being a "fishing trip" of some sort.

 

[JuicyLucy]

If they did "dig up her garden" (and I'm not convinced that they did) might it just have been the case that it was something the police would do as a matter of course in an investigation of this nature? I'm not suggesting that it would be routine to dig up an entire garden but if you are searching a property in relation to a series of exceptionally serious offences and you perhaps noticed some areas of recently turned over soil then it may be reasonable to dig in those locations?

It must be true because here's a copper showing off his spade for the camera, look:



More seriously, the caption for this pic claims: "Police are focusing on an area at the back of the garden."

Police dig up back garden and search gutters at home of neonatal nurse

As a point of interest, LL's house backs on to the Chester Millennium Greenway, a 7-mile walking and cycling route developed along the path of a disused railway line, so the end of her garden would contain a great deal of foliage/undergrowth and would be an important place to search if you were looking for buried or otherwise concealed evidence.

Millennium Greenway

Google Maps

 

[Marantz4250b]

It must be true because here's a copper showing off his spade for the camera, look:

View attachment 372091

More seriously, the caption for this pic claims: "Police are focusing on an area at the back of the garden."

Police dig up back garden and search gutters at home of neonatal nurse

As a point of interest, LL's house backs on to the Chester Millennium Greenway, a 7-mile walking and cycling route developed along the path of a disused railway line, so the end of her garden would contain a great deal of foliage/undergrowth and would be an important place to search if you were looking for buried or otherwise concealed evidence.

Millennium Greenway

Google Maps

This may just be my cynical mind being, well, overly cynical, but a dirty spade clearly being taken into a property the police intend to dig up? Is this usual? I'm not well versed in these things but I have something in the back of my mind whereby I'm sure that whenever I've noticed these things being reported on the news it's always been new equipment that is used when searching for evidence. A successful prosecution may depend on soil analysis, for instance (which the police may not realise at the point of search), so using some scabby shovel that's been used to scrape the weeds from the police station car park doesn't seem like best practice. Second-hand equipment being employed in a search in an exceptionally serious crime looks like a massive open goal to my rather uneducated mind.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

Excellent info, again many thanks.

With reference to the highlighted point; given the reports, the comments on here (including from your good self), and the photos, the search of her Chester property gives the distinct feeling as to it being a "fishing trip" of some sort.

I don't doubt that the police had a good idea of the kind of items they were looking for. Ultimately it has to be evidence of murder or a connected or similar offence.

It was lawful to search her home address or other places controlled by her (car, work locker etc).

This is not your ordinary type of arrest for murder both in terms of the setting and the length of investigation before arrest and then charge.

The photos of the search surprised me in terms of uniformed officers searching without any apparent specialist detective present or scenes of crime.

It doesn't appear to have been treated as a scene of crime as we would all have seen, which I suppose technically it wasn't.

Nevertheless, searching the suspects home address is an opportunity to possibly secure evidence and in such a case would ideally command a specialist response.

The caveat to this is that the unformed officers may been Police Search Advisors (PolSA) and trained in search skills. Although if so, it isn't obvious.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

This may just be my cynical mind being, well, overly cynical, but a dirty spade clearly being taken into a property the police intend to dig up? Is this usual? I'm not well versed in these things but I have something in the back of my mind whereby I'm sure that whenever I've noticed these things being reported on the news it's always been new equipment that is used when searching for evidence. A successful prosecution may depend on soil analysis, for instance (which the police may not realise at the point of search), so using some scabby shovel that's been used to scrape the weeds from the police station car park doesn't seem like best practice. Second-hand equipment being employed in a search in an exceptionally serious crime looks like a massive open goal to my rather uneducated mind.

You raise the legitimate concern of cross-contamination, i.e. introducing an external sample from outside of a crime scene to within.

LL's is not being treated as a crime scene. If it were then only specialist crime scene examiners would be inside an inner cordon donned in overalls, hair nets, gloves and shoe covers etc.

I suspect what they may be looking for are any items of medication or packaging which could have originated from within the NHS. Such items would be barcoded and have other information that would enable them to be traced back to their source.

In this case it is less forensic evidence but possibly items which can be traced back. Much like a serial number on stolen electrical goods.....providing the loser knows it.

 

[Supernovae]

The house search took place in July 2018 but she wasn't charged until November 2020 so they can't have found anything that game changing:

Nurse's home searched by police following baby murder arrests

Detectives have been searching a nurse's home after a healthcare worker was held on suspicion of murdering eight babies and the attempted murder of another six at a neonatal unit.

www.standard.co.uk

Lucy Letby: Nurse remanded in custody after being charged with murdering eight babies

Lucy Letby, 30, is due before Chester Crown Court on Friday afternoon.

news.sky.com

 

[Whitehall 1212]

The house search took place in July 2018 but she wasn't charged until November 2020 so they can't have found anything that game changing:

Nurse's home searched by police following baby murder arrests

Detectives have been searching a nurse's home after a healthcare worker was held on suspicion of murdering eight babies and the attempted murder of another six at a neonatal unit.

www.standard.co.uk

Lucy Letby: Nurse remanded in custody after being charged with murdering eight babies

Lucy Letby, 30, is due before Chester Crown Court on Friday afternoon.

news.sky.com

That's not necessarily the case.

I think the main issues may revolve around identifying a cause of death. Even though most of the deceasd received a post mortem, no electrolyte, glucose, toxicology or blood tests were undertaken.

If it can't be proven how the murder victim died then proving an unlawful act or intent, as is required......would be very questionable.

 

[MsBetsy]

In this example the tent provides an 'operational base' for those involved in the search, a place to brief/debrief officers, storage of search kit that may be needed and maybe storage of some personal kit.

This would afford protection from the elements and limit the introduction of external debris/items into the house, garage or garden

LL's house, garage, garden and parents house were not 'crime scenes'. They were being searched in an effort to secure any evidence that may support LL's involvement or point away from her involvement.

Full crime scene investigation in the UK would look very different to this.

Bodies/body parts found at crime scenes would be seen in situ by the forensic pathologist and then recovered to the mortuary for full post mortem/examination.

Other evidence would be recovered forensically and then sent to a forensic science laboratory for various forensic tests as requested by the Senior Investigating Officer.

That makes sense, thank you. I just remembered that I've seen LE use a tent when sifting through dirt, looking for something very small, like a tiny piece of bone.

I wonder what they were looking for.

 

[Marantz4250b]

If it can't be proven how the murder victim died then proving an unlawful act or intent, as is required......would be very questionable.

One would assume, then, that the prosecution is going to present some cause of death or other for these babies? No one seems to be able to suggest anything as to cause of death thus far which is one of the massively weird things about this case.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

One would assume, then, that the prosecution is going to present some cause of death or other for these babies? No one seems to be able to suggest anything as to cause of death thus far which is one of the massively weird things about this case.

My opinion is that cause of death and the mechanism by which such a death came about will be some of the key arguments.

Without toxicology, electrolyte, full blood count and glucose tests being done (as I understand it) it must have been difficult to reach any firm conclusions from the medical notes alone.

Maybe various tests were requested while the victim was still alive but poorly and not long before they died.

Maybe test results from those who ultimately survived provide the weight of evidence. The results of these tests may be evidential?

Often the same cause of death can result from natural phenomena or as a consequence of self inflicted or criminal act by a third party. A lack of test results could make it difficult to distinguish one from the other.

I am jumping the gun somewhat though

MOO

 

[JuicyLucy]

The search is really fascinating, even though - with its spades and tents and crime scene units and blokes up ladders - I still think much of it was largely for show... in fact, it piques my interest all the more because of my suspicion that it may have been a bit of theatre.

As I said upthread, her garden backs on to the Chester Millennium Greenway, and directly on the other side of that is a large cemetery and crematorium. According to the DM link, the police did search what they call "scrubland" beyond the back of her garden, and at the same time a search appeared to be going on in the grounds of the crematorium.

If I lived somewhere that backed on to a walking and cycle path, I would use it, and it seems to me that the police may have been trying to reconstruct walking or cycling routes that LL may have used or get a feel for the places that were local and familar to her. I know that she had a hospital parking permit on her car, but the Greenway could conceivably have been her route to work on some days, as the eastern end of it is in the centre of Chester. The western end is across the border in Wales and joins with the River Dee.

Part of me is wondering if the real search - the one we were being distracted from noticing - was for something that was suspected of being concealed nearby and accessible, and something that might still be in situ. Given the time that had elapsed between the deaths under investigation and the date of the search, and given that much of the searching took place out of doors, I do not believe the police will have been looking for clinical or pharmaceutical material, but I wonder if she was suspected of keeping trophies of some sort from the deceased babies, for example. It would be extremely interesting to know if anything was found and removed from the cemetery search.

Thinking along these lines is renewing my interest in knowing more about LL's personal history.

All speculation/JMO

Police dig up back garden and search gutters at home of neonatal nurse

 

[JuicyLucy]

As a point of interest, there was also a second search at LL's house on 10 June 2019, after her second arrest:

Police search address as part of baby deaths investigation

Nurse re-arrested on suspicion of murders of eight babies at neo-natal unit

(links include video)

 

[Whitehall 1212]

The search is really fascinating, even though - with its spades and tents and crime scene units and blokes up ladders - I still think much of it was largely for show... in fact, it piques my interest all the more because of my suspicion that it may have been a bit of theatre.

As I said upthread, her garden backs on to the Chester Millennium Greenway, and directly on the other side of that is a large cemetery and crematorium. According to the DM link, the police did search what they call "scrubland" beyond the back of her garden, and at the same time a search appeared to be going on in the grounds of the crematorium.

If I lived somewhere that backed on to a walking and cycle path, I would use it, and it seems to me that the police may have been trying to reconstruct walking or cycling routes that LL may have used or get a feel for the places that were local and familar to her. I know that she had a hospital parking permit on her car, but the Greenway could conceivably have been her route to work on some days, as the eastern end of it is in the centre of Chester. The western end is across the border in Wales and joins with the River Dee.

Part of me is wondering if the real search - the one we were being distracted from noticing - was for something that was suspected of being concealed nearby and accessible, and something that might still be in situ. Given the time that had elapsed between the deaths under investigation and the date of the search, and given that much of the searching took place out of doors, I do not believe the police will have been looking for clinical or pharmaceutical material, but I wonder if she was suspected of keeping trophies of some sort from the deceased babies, for example. It would be extremely interesting to know if anything was found and removed from the cemetery search.

Thinking along these lines is renewing my interest in knowing more about LL's personal history.

All speculation/JMO

Police dig up back garden and search gutters at home of neonatal nurse

The potential for 'trophies' did cross my mind earlier.

Maybe parents said items belonging to baby were missing and police were searching for those items on the basis that LL may be concerned in their disappearance.

Depending on what any trophies were, if indeed it's a thing, they would be unlikely to link directly to the death of the child. It would be circumstantial for which there are reasonable explanations.

If an item was found in a public area, there would need to be compelling evidence to link LL to that item.

I don't think the search was for show. It just wasn't a full on forensic search that we may be more use to seeing.

Police don't disguise searches by setting decoy searches. I've never come across it even mentioned as a possible tactic or an viable operational reason why.

If police have a need to do things covertly when dealing with the most serious offences then the powers exist.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

As a point of interest, there was also a second search at LL's house on 10 June 2019, after her second arrest:

Police search address as part of baby deaths investigation

Nurse re-arrested on suspicion of murders of eight babies at neo-natal unit

(links include video)

Interesting.

I see the forensic scene investigators van was in attendance and a couple of non-uniform staff (poss forensic scene investigator and/or detectives).

A second search which looked more directed may have been on account of specific information. The first search a year before may have been a less directed search.

If LL was released on pre-charge bail after her first arrest then she may have had conditions applied. Two being to live at her parents and not to enter a geographical area around the hospital. Maybe the house was left secured and undisturbed during the period before the second search.

I wonder if LL was talking rather than no comment. If she's innocent of serious crimes then I would expect her to talk freely even though a legal advisor may have advised otherwise.

I hope she had a legal advisor present

 

[Supernovae]

It occurs to me that the unreportable legal argument may be over applications to dismiss any/all of the remaining charges. It would make sense and given the volume of charges it would take up a lot of time arguing over whether there's enough evidence for each charge to go to a jury.

 

[Supernovae]

Barristers' strike over, by the way:

Criminal barristers vote to end strike over pay

Courts will begin hearing cases from Tuesday as criminal barristers accept a new pay deal.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[JosieJo]

9:44am

Prosecution set to begin​

The prosecution is set to begin today in the trial of a Hereford nurse accused of multiple baby murders.
Lucy Letby, 32, who grew up and lives in Hereford, faces charges that she murdered five boys and two girls, and attempted to murder five boys and five girls, between June 2015 and June 2016.

Lucy Letby: prosecution opens in Hereford nurse murder trial

The prosecution is set to open today in the trial of Hereford nurse Lucy Letby, who is accused of murdering seven babies and attempting to murder 10…

www.herefordtimes.com

 

[Marantz4250b]

So, one would think that we should very soon know how, exactly, the prosecution alleges that she did this?