UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #23

[JosieJo]

It's possible if it is a single juror struggling the judge may continue without them as of tomorrow

 

[Tortoise]

I totally agree, even for anything over 3 months. I think complex fraud cases have a panel of judges rather than a jury, but I may be mistaken.

I wonder what options the judge is thinking of? Allowing fewer jurors? I hope to god he doesn't abandon the trial after 7 months. The nightmare for all the parents, not to mention the costs incurred to the taxpayer. The defence barristers will be on an hourly rate.

They wouldn't abandon the trial, they would proceed with 11 jurors. A jury panel can go down to 9.

Even a panel of judges can have adverse personal life circumstances/ill health.

 

[Legal]

I think that when they do have everyone in court they need to ensure that they do a full day's work, rather than all these long breaks and early finishes. Otherwise we're still going to be here at Christmas!

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

I still can't shake off the feeling that many of the jurors absences could be the same person..I'm not saying all.
And many seem to be immediately following breaks or special events

Given the length of this trial so far, what if a juror became pregnant near the beginning ? As things stand, they would likely give birth while the trial was continuing. Presumably court wouldn’t compel a new mum to leave their newborn and get back into court. But if you have already lost the “spare” jurors you started the trial with for various reasons, what then happens? Mistrial and start again?

 

[katydid23]

They wouldn't abandon the trial, they would proceed with 11 jurors. A jury panel can go down to 9.

Even a panel of judges can have adverse personal life circumstances/ill health.

They are pretty close to the finish line. Drop the one who is struggling [can't say I blame them]---and go with 11.

I am amazed all 12 have made it this far. It must be gruelling and depressing to be sitting for this gruesome trial.

 

[Parker Knoll]

They are pretty close to the finish line. Drop the one who is struggling [can't say I blame them]---and go with 11.

I am amazed all 12 have made it this far. It must be gruelling and depressing to be sitting for this gruesome trial.

Agreed - it must be horrendous day in day out.
I suspect we will be down to 11 going forward.
MOO

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

They are pretty close to the finish line. Drop the one who is struggling [can't say I blame them]---and go with 11.

I am amazed all 12 have made it this far. It must be gruelling and depressing to be sitting for this gruesome trial.

I know the jurors were told at the beginning that the trial was expected to last until late May but I wonder if jurors were also told “but you mustn’t book any holidays until (eg) august at the earliest to be on the safe side.”

 

[Tortoise]

From Jan 10th -

10:35am

He tells the jury we are "not halfway through" the prosecution case, and the trial will not resume today.
It is now anticipated the case will run until May. Previously the jury had been told the case could run beyond Easter.
There will be a break for Easter, from April 6-17. After that point, the only planned interruptions will be for public Bank Holidays.
Members of the jury are being told not to book any holidays beyond Easter.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, January 10 curtailed due to juror absence

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

From Jan 10th -

10:35am

He tells the jury we are "not halfway through" the prosecution case, and the trial will not resume today.
It is now anticipated the case will run until May. Previously the jury had been told the case could run beyond Easter.
There will be a break for Easter, from April 6-17. After that point, the only planned interruptions will be for public Bank Holidays.
Members of the jury are being told not to book any holidays beyond Easter.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, January 10 curtailed due to juror absence

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

“Beyond Easter”…. Like 4 months beyond Easter or 4 years? How ominous and soul destroying

 

[Anxala]

10:39am

Eleven of the 12 members of the jury come into court.
The judge tells them the trial cannot proceed unless all 12 of them are present, and one is not present for "particular personal reasons".
"There is obvious uncertainty in relation to your colleague's position", he adds.
The jury are urged to turn up tomorrow unless they hear otherwise.
The judge tells the jury: "We have had a lot of breaks, and there comes a time where we cannot keep having more and more breaks, as it becomes inappropriate.
"Events do occur which are unexpected, and we have had a few during this case."
The court is told that a view will be taken tomorrow on the 12th juror.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, May 30 - trial adjourned again

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more, was…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

^ That kind of makes it sound like s/he's a serial offender...

 

[Cluedoneit]

I think it’s time the judge is going to have to make some harsh decisions regarding the Jury and the time they are sitting. If a two day week has been negotiated, it may need to be re-examined as it’s no good dragging this trial on and possibly causing a mistrial.

There’s a balance between protecting the health of the defendant and the health of the jury and if my opinion is correct, they need to get back to 6 hour court days at least 4 days a week, the same as afforded to nearly every other defendant or the jury might just give up.

I understand her mental health might be poor, but it was her decision to take the stand, one she might regret, but still hers and she should in my opinion be reminded of that and submit to proper lengthy cross examination, similar to every other defendant for murder, rather than being treated better than most sexual assault survivors are.

 

[katydid23]

^ That kind of makes it sound like s/he's a serial offender...

There are lots of retired folks on juries. It could be someone who is exhausted by this trial and it affects their immune system. I think it would be too much for me, these days, if I had to go to court for 6 months and sit through this horror.

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

I think it’s time the judge is going to have to make some harsh decisions regarding the Jury and the time they are sitting. If a two day week has been negotiated, it may need to be re-examined as it’s no good dragging this trial on and possibly causing a mistrial.

There’s a balance between protecting the health of the defendant and the health of the jury and if my opinion is correct, they need to get back to 6 hour court days at least 4 days a week, the same as afforded to nearly every other defendant or the jury might just give up.

I understand her mental health might be poor, but it was her decision to take the stand, one she might regret, but still hers and she should in my opinion be reminded of that and submit to proper lengthy cross examination, similar to every other defendant for murder, rather than being treated better than most sexual assault survivors are.

Well it’s not just the defendant and the jury. This is clogging up the system.
My understanding is that when they are scheduling criminal trials, they try to schedule it so that it can just run one day after another (taking into account public holidays ). This trial overrunning and being only a few days a week is going to have a knock on effect on other criminal trials already scheduled or in the process of being scheduled.

 

[JosieJo]

Given the length of this trial so far, what if a juror became pregnant near the beginning ? As things stand, they would likely give birth while the trial was continuing. Presumably court wouldn’t compel a new mum to leave their newborn and get back into court. But if you have already lost the “spare” jurors you started the trial with for various reasons, what then happens? Mistrial and start again?

No they can go down to 9 so if it is one juror in particular it makes sense to discharge them

 

[JosieJo]

^ That kind of makes it sound like s/he's a serial offender...

I agree I've had a gut feeling about this before

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

The other frankly terrifying feature about this is that employers aren’t legally required to pay their employees who are on jury service (but many do).

Giving staff time off for jury service

What you can do if an employee is called up for jury service, and how to sort out their pay or help them claim an allowance

www.gov.uk

If a juror isn’t getting paid by their employer , they can claim loss of earnings from court but it is capped at something low like £70 a day.

I wonder whether this was factored in when selecting jurors for this length of trial so that they only picked people who would get full pay from their employers?

Otherwise, imagine being a juror on a trial this length and suddenly having your salary massively reduced , particularly in the current cost of living crisis.

 

[Anxala]

I think it’s time the judge is going to have to make some harsh decisions regarding the Jury and the time they are sitting. If a two day week has been negotiated, it may need to be re-examined as it’s no good dragging this trial on and possibly causing a mistrial.

There’s a balance between protecting the health of the defendant and the health of the jury and if my opinion is correct, they need to get back to 6 hour court days at least 4 days a week, the same as afforded to nearly every other defendant or the jury might just give up.

I understand her mental health might be poor, but it was her decision to take the stand, one she might regret, but still hers and she should in my opinion be reminded of that and submit to proper lengthy cross examination, similar to every other defendant for murder, rather than being treated better than most sexual assault survivors are.

But we don't know that the delays are down to LL. This one's not, others were also jury-related, and there's no evidence to indicate that a 2-day week is in place.

There are lots of retired folks on juries. It could be someone who is exhausted by this trial and it affects their immune system. I think it would be too much for me, these days, if I had to go to court for 6 months and sit through this horror.

Oh I'm not throwing shade at anyone, Katy. They have all my sympathy.

As I said earlier, all we're really seeing here is the inevitable shortcomings of long jury-based trials.

 

[WaxLyrical]

I very much doubt the short weeks and hours has anything to do with Letby or her being afforded special treatment. I appreciate the judge ended a week a bit early/ didn’t reconvene after lunch, but he’s likely just doing what he thinks is in the best interests of everyone/the court, especially if he thinks Letby’s testimony might be unreliable if she’s perceived to be exhausted. At the end of the day, most defendants on the stand are facing a couple of charges, this is 22 separate charges.

In terms of the juror, I’m also inclined to wonder whether most of the absences have been down to one person. It could be a case of childcare, where the partner’s employer’s patience is wearing thin, and kids who are sick can’t go into school. Just speculating.

 

[Tortoise]

What you can claim​

There’s a limit to how much you can claim for each day you’re at court.

Loss of earnings, childcare and other care costs​

How much you can claim to cover loss of earnings and care costs depends on the length of your jury service and how many hours you spend at court each day.

For the first 10 days of jury service, you can claim up to:

• £64.95 a day if you spend more than 4 hours at court
• £32.47 a day if you spend 4 hours or less at court

If your jury service lasts longer than 10 working days, the amount you can claim increases. You’ll be able to claim up to:

• £129.91 a day if you spend more than 4 hours at court
• £64.95 a day if you spend 4 hours or less at court

Jury service

What to do if you're asked to do jury service - taking time off work, delaying jury service, claiming expenses. Includes information from the withdrawn 5222, 5222A and Juror Charter guidance

www.gov.uk

 

[Cluedoneit]

Apologies, my memory is probably faulty, but since Lucy Letby took the stand, has the court sat more than a 2 day week?