UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #24

[bbsaz]

Probably down to 11 jurors then, unless by some miracle the 12th juror had a false alarm.

I'm hoping the surgery we heard about was minor surgery eg the juror cut the tip of their finger off at lunch and "needed surgery". Im clutching at straws, but I don't want it to go down to 11

 

[marynnu]

On the other hand we have a style of attack entirely inconsistent with anything else that’s alleged. No air, no poisoning, no internal trauma. No paper towel keepsake, or any other notes. No sympathy card. No memory box. No initials in her diary. No post it note ramblings. No Facebook searching until a matter of weeks before her arrest, <modsnip: sub judice>

We’ve got her acting seemingly normal when “caught” by Dr J, and not like the rabbit in headlights you’d expect if someone was caught red handed trying to murder a baby. We’ve got inconsistencies in recollections between Dr J and the designated nurse. We’ve got a breathing tube that was so insecure it was able to dislodged multiple times.

Baby K is just not the open and shut case for me as it seems to be for everyone else. JMO.

I completely agree. F or me, Baby K is a non-starter. I think the same for the insulin cases too, to be honest.

 

[Tortoise]

On the other hand we have a style of attack entirely inconsistent with anything else that’s alleged. No air, no poisoning, no internal trauma. No paper towel keepsake, or any other notes. No sympathy card. No memory box. No initials in her diary. No post it note ramblings. No Facebook searching until a matter of weeks before her arrest, <modsnip: sub judice>

We’ve got her acting seemingly normal when “caught” by Dr J, and not like the rabbit in headlights you’d expect if someone was caught red handed trying to murder a baby. We’ve got inconsistencies in recollections between Dr J and the designated nurse. We’ve got a breathing tube that was so insecure it was able to dislodged multiple times.

Baby K is just not the open and shut case for me as it seems to be for everyone else. JMO.

It's not inconsistent with other allegations. The prosecution alleges she interfered with baby H's breathing tube twice, and also caused bleeding.

Baby E's mum also says she walked in and saw LL standing by and doing nothing to help the baby.

It's also not an agreed fact of the case that baby K's breathing tube was insecure. The defence says it could have been, the prosecution says it was dislodged purposely by LL.

<modsnip: quoted post was snipped>

 

[Marantz4250b]

I completely agree. F or me, Baby K is a non-starter. I think the same for the insulin cases too, to be honest.

Isn't baby K the one that she's already been acquitted of the murder of and is now facing the alternate attempted murder allegation(s)?

I feel the same way about the insulin cases; they just feel and sound completely different to all the other allegations, tbh. If, purely for the sake of argument, we accept that she's guilty as charged on all the rest, then I wouldn't be at all surprised if someone else committed the insulin ones - unlikely as that may be.

I understand the rationale of lots of other crimes reinforcing the guilt of them as a whole series of events but that can only be logically sustainable if there are actual similarities to them other than merely the temporal. There appear to be none at all with the insulin cases.

MOO, obvs.

 

[marynnu]

Isn't baby K the one that she's already been acquitted of the murder of and is now facing the alternate attempted murder allegation(s)?

I feel the same way about the insulin cases; they just feel and sound completely different to all the other allegations, tbh. If, purely for the sake of argument, we accept that she's guilty as charged on all the rest, then I wouldn't be at all surprised if someone else committed the insulin ones - unlikely as that may be.

I understand the rationale of lots of other crimes reinforcing the guilt of them as a whole series of events but that can only be logically sustainable if there are actual similarities to them other than merely the temporal. There appear to be none at all with the insulin cases.

MOO, obvs.

I do actually suspect that she is responsible for attacking Babies F, K and L. But I think there are too many question marks for her to be found guilty. JMO.

 

[Jazmania]

I think the prosecution have established that someone on the unit deliberately gave babies f and l insulin. Letby has admitted as such under cross examination. There were only 2 nurses on duty for both. What doubts remain there?

 

[Tortoise]

I think the prosecution have established that someone on the unit deliberately gave babies f and l insulin. Letby has admitted as such under cross examination. There were only 2 nurses on duty for both. What doubts remain there?

And the other nurse wasn't involved in hanging the bags.

 

[CS2C]

Does anyone know if these TPN bags are made up at the hospital? The reason I say that is because when I attended on Monday it was almost as if Lucy was saying “I have no idea how the insulin would have ended up in the bag, maybe it came from outside the hospital when it was produced”

Now let me make it clear she didn’t use those words but In my opinion it was clear what she was trying to say. She wasn’t able to articulate clearly what she meant during that exchange and Mr Johnson moved on to another question.

 

[Jazmania]

Yes baby K

She said at police interview she vaguely remembered her because she was so premature. But didn't remember any specific events involving her. The big discrepancy here is why did she search for baby k"s mother 2 years after her death if she didn't remember her? How did she even know the name of baby k's mom given she never met her and baby k was only on the unit hours.

 

[WaxLyrical]

It's not inconsistent with other allegations. The prosecution alleges she interfered with baby H's breathing tube twice, and also caused bleeding.

Baby E's mum also says she walked in and saw LL standing by and doing nothing to help the baby.

It's also not an agreed fact of the case that baby K's breathing tube was insecure. The defence says it could have been, the prosecution says it was dislodged purposely by LL.

<modsnip: quoted post was snipped>

There hasn’t been anything to suggest the manner in which the tube was secured, was it held in place by a piece of tape, a clamp, etc. All we have is one side saying it was secured and the other saying it might not have been.

Baby E was not desaturating at the time the mum is alleged to have walked in. He is alleged to have had blood at his mouth.

<modsnip: quoted post was snipped>

JMO.

 

[esther43]

Would she be that interested considering she previously worked in a higher level unit where it presumably wasn’t that uncommon?

I guess it depends on how you see it.. LL appeared to have quite an esteemed view of the level 3 unit. I always got the impression that she would have rather worked there, where the babies are sicker and there is higher demand for the skills she so passionately wanted to develop.
With this in mind, yes I think a 25 weeker would stand out to her and if the evidence is anything to go by she'd relish the opportunity to work with this extremely pre-term infant and may even have felt that due to her recent placement at LW, that she was best placed to undertake the care of this extremely low birth weight baby.
Another interesting element to LL's behaviour is the way in which she considers another hospital to be superior to the one that actually employs her.
This is most unusual in my view and would be considered culturally insensitive. There are often historical and deep-seated political issues between hospitals so to back 'the competitor' would typically not be well received. iMO

 

[Tortoise]

There hasn’t been anything to suggest the manner in which the tube was secured, was it held in place by a piece of tape, a clamp, etc. All we have is one side saying it was secured and the other saying it might not have been.

Baby E was not desaturating at the time the mum is alleged to have walked in. He is alleged to have had blood at his mouth.

<modsnip: quoted post was snipped>

JMO.

There was a description in the podcast for baby K

"An x-ray taken at seven minutes past six showed this was in a satisfactory position. Three minutes later, Lucy Letby despite not being baby K's designated nurse, logged onto her medical notes and recorded that her breathing tube had been secured to her bonnet and re-tied."

This was at the time that LL agrees baby K was under sedation, just minutes before she returned the notes to the cotside, baby K's tube was dislodged, and she desaturated again.

The Trial of Lucy Letby, Episode 20: Baby K, “It didn’t really make sense to me why the tube became dislodged.”

www.mailplus.co.uk

 

[Tortoise]

Does anyone know if these TPN bags are made up at the hospital? The reason I say that is because when I attended on Monday it was almost as if Lucy was saying “I have no idea how the insulin would have ended up in the bag, maybe it came from outside the hospital when it was produced”

Now let me make it clear she didn’t use those words but In my opinion it was clear what she was trying to say. She wasn’t able to articulate clearly what she meant during that exchange and Mr Johnson moved on to another question.

here's the evidence heard about prescribed TPN -


The next witness to give evidence is Ian Allen, who worked in the Countess of Chester Hospital's pharmacy department in summer 2015.
Simon Driver, prosecuting, asks about the responsibilities Mr Allen had, which involved quality assurance and production of TPN bags for the neonatal unit.

3:16pm

Mr Driver focuses on the TPN bags, and a video which has been produced for the benefit of the court showing how a TPN bag is made.
Mr Allen confirms he has seen the video.
He describes the types of TPN nutrition bags - one would be used for the baby's first two days of life, and the other would be a maintenance 'stock' bag, supplied to the unit through the department.

3:20pm

Mr Allen says the initial order would be faxed down to the pharmacy from the neonatal unit. It would be handed to a pharmacist, reviewed by them, processed into a worksheet [a set of instructions on how to make the bag and the ingredients needed to make it].
A label would be generated.
A member of the pharmacy team would gather the ingredients/quantities required. Every medicine would come with a batch sheet number as part of the 'assembly'.
"Every step in the process has a standard operating procedure"
Staff would be trained in the process through nationally recognised quality assurance, he tells the court.

3:25pm

The items would be sprayed and wiped to sterilise them, and then made in a controlled environment.
Two operators would make the bag, with checks in place confirming the identity and quantity of the ingredients.

3:28pm

A pharmacist would check what has been used, looking at empty vials and ampoules to confirm what has been used.
The pharmacist would be ultimately reponsible for the product.
The unit would be subject to regulatory monitoring to ensure the safety, quaity and effectiveness of the products.


3:31pm

The video explaining how a TPN bag is made at the pharmacy department is played to the court for the second time - it was first shown on Monday.
The prosecution say they may intervene at various points in the video to ask Mr Allen questions about what is shown to the court.

4:00pm

Mr Allen is now demonstrating how a TPN bag and its connectors work - which does have a connector which can be opened.


4:02pm

The empty TPN bag and its connectors are now being passed around members of the jury and the defence for examination.

4:06pm

Mr Driver is asking Mr Allen about how a quantity of liquid could be added to one of the ports, which is shown to be possible.

4:10pm

The court is shown a nutrition prescription for Child F for August 4.
Mr Allen confirms he is familiar with the type of prescription shown, and the worksheet which is also shown to the court.
He said this particular TPN would have followed the standard protocols in the pharmacy, and was reflective of the prescription.
He said the bag would have been transferred from the pharmacy to the neonatal unit fridge.

4:14pm

A copy of the label for that TPN bag on August 4 would have been made for the pharmacy's records.
The label has a use-by date of August 11, to be stored between 2-8 degrees C.

4:18pm

The August 4 TPN bag did not have lipids prescribed on the prescription. Mr Allen said such lipids would have been prescribed separately.
Mr Driver asks 'Would there be insulin?' for the TPN bags.
Mr Allen: "No, there would never be insulin prescribed in these bags."
Mr Driver asks how would that [insulin prescription for a baby] be done?
Mr Allen: "...by separate syringes."

Cross-Examination

4:25pm

Ben Myers KC, for Letby's defence, rises to clarify one matter on the TPN bag, which had an expiration date of seven days.
He says normally, TPN bags could last for up to two months, but once the extra items are added to the prescription, the expiration would be reduced.
Mr Allen: "That's correct."
The court hears the stability of the bag is reduced.

Judge's Questions

Mr Allen explains, upon questions from the judge, there would be nothing added by a pharmacist other than trace vitamins. The TPN bag would contain components such as 10% dextrose.
The judge asks about the storage of the TPN bags.
Mr Allen says there would be a stock level of TPN bags - they would be 'off-the-shelf' bags and a number would be stored in the pharmacy, and a smaller number would be stored in the unit's refrigeration area.

4:28pm

Members of the jury are reminded by the judge, having heard a lot of expert evidence in the case today, not to conduct any independent research.

LIVE: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, November 29

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

I completely agree. F or me, Baby K is a non-starter. I think the same for the insulin cases too, to be honest.

I’d be very interested to hear your thoughts on the insulin cases and why you don’t think they were murder attempts (if that’s indeed what you think )? Your perspective is very much appreciated given your background

 

[esther43]

On the other hand we have a style of attack entirely inconsistent with anything else that’s alleged. No air, no poisoning, no internal trauma. No paper towel keepsake, or any other notes. No sympathy card. No memory box. No initials in her diary. No post it note ramblings. No Facebook searching until a matter of weeks before her arrest, suggestive in my view of her being tipped off on which babies are being investigated, rather than her stalking the parents’ grief.

We’ve got her acting seemingly normal when “caught” by Dr J, and not like the rabbit in headlights you’d expect if someone was caught red handed trying to murder a baby. We’ve got inconsistencies in recollections between Dr J and the designated nurse. We’ve got a breathing tube that was so insecure it was able to dislodged multiple times.

Baby K is just not the open and shut case for me as it seems to be for everyone else. JMO.

Okay but the biggest problem with baby K I think was that when RJ came into the room, she was looking at RJ head on doing nothing.
You make some good points though about other evidence in relation to this case not being strong. It really comes down to whether the jury believe Dr RJ against LL.
Other things to consider in relation to baby K are whether her pattern of deterioration mirrors what would be expected in a 25 weeker. I'd argue that 25 weekers are notoriously unstable in the first few days so the profound desat not all that surprising in itself, her reaction though, if true sounds suspicious.

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

Isn't baby K the one that she's already been acquitted of the murder of and is now facing the alternate attempted murder allegation(s)?

I feel the same way about the insulin cases; they just feel and sound completely different to all the other allegations, tbh. If, purely for the sake of argument, we accept that she's guilty as charged on all the rest, then I wouldn't be at all surprised if someone else committed the insulin ones - unlikely as that may be.

I understand the rationale of lots of other crimes reinforcing the guilt of them as a whole series of events but that can only be logically sustainable if there are actual similarities to them other than merely the temporal. There appear to be none at all with the insulin cases.

MOO, obvs.

Yes, acquitted on murder charge. I still cannot get my head around how neither the defence nor prosecution has said what baby K’s ultimate cause of death was. How is it not relevant? If baby K died of a particular condition , and that condition can cause collapses like the ones LL is charged with , how is that not relevant ?

 

[Tortoise]

Yes, acquitted on murder charge. I still cannot get my head around how neither the defence nor prosecution has said what baby K’s ultimate cause of death was. How is it not relevant? If baby K died of a particular condition , and that condition can cause collapses like the ones LL is charged with , how is that not relevant ?

The defence hasn't made any reference to it, so they don't deem it relevant.

 

[GoodDayToYouSir]

The defence hasn't made any reference to it, so they don't deem it relevant.

Or there’s been a pre trial ruling that the cause of death can’t be brought up.

 

[Dcflag]

I guess it depends on how you see it.. LL appeared to have quite an esteemed view of the level 3 unit. I always got the impression that she would have rather worked there, where the babies are sicker and there is higher demand for the skills she so passionately wanted to develop.
With this in mind, yes I think a 25 weeker would stand out to her and if the evidence is anything to go by she'd relish the opportunity to work with this extremely pre-term infant and may even have felt that due to her recent placement at LW, that she was best placed to undertake the care of this extremely low birth weight baby.
Another interesting element to LL's behaviour is the way in which she considers another hospital to be superior to the one that actually employs her.
This is most unusual in my view and would be considered culturally insensitive. There are often historical and deep-seated political issues between hospitals so to back 'the competitor' would typically not be well received. iMO

Can we really say that though? I’d be interested to know if she ever applied for jobs at a tertiary unit, or expressed an interest in higher level care of neonatal than the countess provided.

I also think in terms of this baby that she would be more memorable than most. I also find it really hard to accept she doesn’t have any recollection of her standing and watching the baby desat, when the desat happened, we know she was “babysitting”. You’d think she’d remember attending to the desat.

 

[Dcflag]

Or there’s been a pre trial ruling that the cause of death can’t be brought up.

Sometimes they do this even when it does seem relevant I’m sure. Obviously not quite the same but I recall someone being tried for some violent offence. Post conviction it was found he had violent *advertiser censored* on his phone.