UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #25

[Kemug]

The lack of character witnesses may or may not matter/may or not be useful. Still, I was surprised that there were absolutely none. If I was LL, I would want any number of old friends and associates to stand up and tell the world what a lovely person I was! I would be hoping that it might sway the jury, at least just a little bit. I am trying not to find the lack of character witnesses telling.

 

[katydid23]

I just hope they get print outs / digital text and don't have rely on memory!

They get a paper form to fill out, with specific details to walk them through each charge.

 

[katydid23]

The lack of character witnesses may or may not matter/may or not be useful. Still, I was surprised that there were absolutely none. If I was LL, I would want any number of old friends and associates to stand up and tell the world what a lovely person I was! I would be hoping that it might sway the jury, at least just a little bit. I am trying not to find the lack of character witnesses telling.

I think that would be like putting your finger in the hole of the dam while the wall of water washes over the top of you...

 

[squish]

What's the relevance?

Like with many other minor details in this case, it's only relevant if she's guilty.

The relevance is that she purchased a house in March 2016, in the middle of the alleged June 2015 - June 2016 charges, that is the very house that is directly behind the baby memorial garden in a very large cemetery. It's literally the closest house possible to this little baby garden. In the winter when the trees between her garden and the memorial garden were bare, she would have been able to view it from her upstairs windows. I think this is relevant given that the prosecution allege she enjoyed watching the aftermath of deaths, including the Facebook searches. It is also relevant in that if guilty, serial killers often like to be near the bodies of their victims.

Also, when she purchased this house, there was already a children's bedroom with this design on the wall:

<modsnip: No link; ALL images require a link to source>

Which looks very like the owls in Nursery 2, where several of the babies were allegedly attacked:


<modsnip: No link; ALL images require a link to source>


If guilty, I cannot see any of this as a coincidence. JMO.

 

[squish]

The lack of character witnesses may or may not matter/may or not be useful. Still, I was surprised that there were absolutely none. If I was LL, I would want any number of old friends and associates to stand up and tell the world what a lovely person I was! I would be hoping that it might sway the jury, at least just a little bit. I am trying not to find the lack of character witnesses telling.

Basically good character witnesses from the defense would then allow the prosecution to bring in bad character witnesses.

Even so, given the defense has so little, if I was Lucy I would still want Mummy and Daddy to take the stand. It would humanise her and at least make the jury care about her parents, which might increase the jury's motivation to be generous to her.

 

[Dotta]

Like with many other minor details in this case, it's only relevant if she's guilty.

The relevance is that she purchased a house in March 2016, in the middle of the alleged June 2015 - June 2016 charges, that is the very house that is directly behind the baby memorial garden in a very large cemetery. It's literally the closest house possible to this little baby garden. In the winter when the trees between her garden and the memorial garden were bare, she would have been able to view it from her upstairs windows. I think this is relevant given that the prosecution allege she enjoyed watching the aftermath of deaths, including the Facebook searches. It is also relevant in that if guilty, serial killers often like to be near the bodies of their victims.

Also, when she purchased this house, there was already a children's bedroom with this design on the wall:

<modsnip: No link; ALL images require a link to source>

Which looks very like the owls in Nursery 2, where several of the babies were allegedly attacked:


<modsnip: No link; ALL images require a link to source>


If guilty, I cannot see any of this as a coincidence. JMO.

It might even explain why a young single woman bought a big house out of the blue.

Some investment!
cough, cough, wink, wink


If guilty, of course
JMO

 

[Blondiexoxo]

It might even explain why a young single woman bought a big house out of the blue.

Some investment!
cough, cough, wink, wink


JMO

Could ‘fate’ have driven her to purchase it, if she viewed it and saw those owls on the wall that were so similar to the ones in the unit. She mentioned early on in her texts about thinking an element of fate may be involved.. because you know how mean old fate just causes babies to collapse and die suddenly!
Strange they were still there at the time of her arrest though, I understand she was busy and may not have had time to decorate but those are stickers, you just peel them off.

MOO

 

[Blondiexoxo]

I wonder when did LL find out doc choc was married? Was it around the time of the incidents, or after she had been removed from the unit or maybe even after her arrest. You know when she apologises to him for being ‘off’ at work earlier that day, could a colleague have possibly told her he was married at that point? JMO
MOO

 

[Dotta]

Could ‘fate’ have driven her to purchase it, if she viewed it and saw those owls on the wall that were so similar to the ones in the unit. She mentioned early on in her texts about thinking an element of fate may be involved.. because you know how mean old fate just causes babies to collapse and die suddenly!
Strange they were still there at the time of her arrest though, I understand she was busy and may not have had time to decorate but those are stickers, you just peel them off.

MOO

As they say
Life is stranger than fiction!

 

[Blondiexoxo]

Basically good character witnesses from the defense would then allow the prosecution to bring in bad character witnesses.

Even so, given the defense has so little, if I was Lucy I would still want Mummy and Daddy to take the stand. It would humanise her and at least make the jury care about her parents, which might increase the jury's motivation to be generous to her.

I think that NJ could argue against her parents giving character witness evidence because they could be seen as biased. They also would have motivation to want to save her from prison, I think if character witnesses are introduced at trial, they’d have to be considered unbiased otherwise NJ could suggest they aren’t credible witnesses. At sentencing yes they could give a statement but at trial I don’t think the prosecution would allow it.
JMO

 

[esther43]

Like with many other minor details in this case, it's only relevant if she's guilty.

The relevance is that she purchased a house in March 2016, in the middle of the alleged June 2015 - June 2016 charges, that is the very house that is directly behind the baby memorial garden in a very large cemetery. It's literally the closest house possible to this little baby garden. In the winter when the trees between her garden and the memorial garden were bare, she would have been able to view it from her upstairs windows. I think this is relevant given that the prosecution allege she enjoyed watching the aftermath of deaths, including the Facebook searches. It is also relevant in that if guilty, serial killers often like to be near the bodies of their victims.

Also, when she purchased this house, there was already a children's bedroom with this design on the wall:

<modsnip: No link; ALL images require a link to source>

Which looks very like the owls in Nursery 2, where several of the babies were allegedly attacked:


<modsnip: No link; ALL images require a link to source>


If guilty, I cannot see any of this as a coincidence. JMO.

Just to say, I don't believe that incubator would be any closer to the wall. They would need a space on that side to get to the baby if it's an emergency. Esp given parent chair was on the other side!

 

[Cardgame]

I've been thinking about Dr choc again.

1. That 'go commando' text message to the colleague where she starts off saying she 'had a strange message from doc choc' ...

But then she denies a romantic connection. But why send the message in the first place? It's like she wants a chance to deny it, or to play innocent. Something v manipulative about the whole exchange, like it's a game she's playing.

This led me to think about:

2. the weeping LL did when doc choc appeared on the stand.

If guilty, I wonder if she was hoping for some kind of narrative about her being the victim of the mean doctor.

IMO that weeping is similar to the manipulation of the colleague in the text, it's sort of 'off' , doesn't really make sense. If you are on trial for murdering babies, it's just impossible to fathom that even an actual AFFAIR would lead to that kind of dramatic emotional reaction.

But she then goes on to deny that relationship on the stand.

So why do the weeping?

If guilty, I think she was expecting, in the beginning, that it would be easy for her to get sympathy, feign naivety, play the victim, manipulate the truth, her usual MO which has been so successful throughout her life. If guilty, she underestimated the prosecution IMO and the value other humans place on TRUTH.

I wonder what her demeanour will be during closing statements.

Will we get more weeping?

 

[Tortoise]

Regarding cause of death, unless I've literally had some kind of memory blank, the court hasn't heard any opposing arguments.

The only scenarios put forwards for all causes of death are those described by the prosecution, those were then agreed by LL as being things that would result in death and cannot be accidental. Her barrister did not argue and no expert came forth to dispute the prosecution scenarios.

So how can any jury possibly not find her guilty on all counts? JMO MOO

Yes there has been very extensive cross-examination (issues raised with) the expert witnesses, raising claims of biases and tunnel vision, amongst other things, on the basis - in most cases - of the causes of death given in the babies' original post-mortems. There has been testimony from treating doctors of some other issues affecting the babies, for instance some deficiencies and delays in care, the positioning of lines in the babies, indicators of infection, issues affecting the babies such as those caused by ventilation, gastric issues, etc, as well as some admissions that other causes can't be ruled out but in the experts' opinions are extremely rare and/or highly unlikely. Overall, there is an abundance of disputed testimony in this eight-month-long trial.

 

[Legal]

I've been thinking about Dr choc again.

1. That 'go commando' text message to the colleague where she starts off saying she 'had a strange message from doc choc' ...

But then she denies a romantic connection. But why send the message in the first place? It's like she wants a chance to deny it, or to play innocent. Something v manipulative about the whole exchange, like it's a game she's playing.

This led me to think about:

2. the weeping LL did when doc choc appeared on the stand.

If guilty, I wonder if she was hoping for some kind of narrative about her being the victim of the mean doctor.

IMO that weeping is similar to the manipulation of the colleague in the text, it's sort of 'off' , doesn't really make sense. If you are on trial for murdering babies, it's just impossible to fathom that even an actual AFFAIR would lead to that kind of dramatic emotional reaction.

But she then goes on to deny that relationship on the stand.

So why do the weeping?

If guilty, I think she was expecting, in the beginning, that it would be easy for her to get sympathy, feign naivety, play the victim, manipulate the truth, her usual MO which has been so successful throughout her life. If guilty, she underestimated the prosecution IMO and the value other humans place on TRUTH.

I wonder what her demeanour will be during closing statements.

Will we get more weeping?

I agree, IMO the commando text exchange reminds me of being a young teenager when you fancy someone and keep bringing their name into conversation but then get embarrassed when your friend teases you about it, although you kind of enjoy the teasing. It's not the usual way you would behave in your twenties and people have commented on the fact she does seem quite immature in some ways. Following on from that, I wonder if the fact her parents were in court listening to everything affected her testimony in any way, for example, denying she knew what go commando meant and denying the affair (if it was one). Like you say, admitting to a relationship with a married man is nothing compared to being accused of murdering babies, but perhaps she's still keeping up the charade of "nice Lucy" for her parents' benefit. if guilty and JMO.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I’d be very surprised if this young lady had much experience in either friendships in general or even romantic relationships. Most of the socialising we have heard is professionally related, very accessible. Think that’s a part of her reactions, even without intimacy at that point I’m thinking it was probably not off the cards.

eta. I don’t think nj kc achieved anything by making out ll was interfering with a married man. If anything did happen it’s not on her, it’s all on him excluding the charges. One might think if ll was a liar or other she might see an opportunity to deflect negative attention from herself using the cheating married man. for example “yes he was very interested in me and tbh I was so flattered a dr saw something in me I became open to it”.

 

[esther43]

What an interesting write up from the BBC.
Saying the expert witnesses can not be relied upon. This report seems very pro-letby.

Lucy Letby trial: Jury told to judge facts 'calmly and fairly' - BBC News

Nurse Lucy Letby is on trial accused of murdering babies and attempting to kill others at a hospital.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[MachinaCollecta]

What an interesting write up from the BBC.
Saying the expert witnesses can not be relied upon. This report seems very pro-letby.

Lucy Letby trial: Jury told to judge facts 'calmly and fairly' - BBC News

Nurse Lucy Letby is on trial accused of murdering babies and attempting to kill others at a hospital.

www.bbc.co.uk

With full respect I can’t say I see this report as pro-LL at all! I don’t really see much editorialising going on, just seems a recollection of some facts going into the jury instructions. Happy to be proven otherwise of course!

 

[marynnu]

Like with many other minor details in this case, it's only relevant if she's guilty.

The relevance is that she purchased a house in March 2016, in the middle of the alleged June 2015 - June 2016 charges, that is the very house that is directly behind the baby memorial garden in a very large cemetery. It's literally the closest house possible to this little baby garden. In the winter when the trees between her garden and the memorial garden were bare, she would have been able to view it from her upstairs windows. I think this is relevant given that the prosecution allege she enjoyed watching the aftermath of deaths, including the Facebook searches. It is also relevant in that if guilty, serial killers often like to be near the bodies of their victims.

Also, when she purchased this house, there was already a children's bedroom with this design on the wall:

<modsnip: No link; ALL images require a link to source>

Which looks very like the owls in Nursery 2, where several of the babies were allegedly attacked:


<modsnip: No link; ALL images require a link to source>


If guilty, I cannot see any of this as a coincidence. JMO.

Or, to play devil's advocate, it was probably cheaper by reason of its location!

 

[Sweeper2000]

What an interesting write up from the BBC.
Saying the expert witnesses can not be relied upon. This report seems very pro-letby.

Lucy Letby trial: Jury told to judge facts 'calmly and fairly' - BBC News

Nurse Lucy Letby is on trial accused of murdering babies and attempting to kill others at a hospital.

www.bbc.co.uk

he just reiterated that the defences case is that the experts advice can not be relied upon and that there are other possible explanations for the events. Might seem pro defence as that article features mostly defence orientated statements.

 

[JosieJo]

What an interesting write up from the BBC.
Saying the expert witnesses can not be relied upon. This report seems very pro-letby.

Lucy Letby trial: Jury told to judge facts 'calmly and fairly' - BBC News

Nurse Lucy Letby is on trial accused of murdering babies and attempting to kill others at a hospital.

www.bbc.co.uk

The judge is saying its "the defence case" that the expert witnesses can't be relied upon