UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #25

[Blondiexoxo]

IMO LL is experienced in portraying an image of angelic nurse. She refuted anything that threatens this image, the falsifying documents, harming babies, the affair with doc choc, falling out with colleagues, being bored at work, texting in clinical areas, making mistakes etc etc ad nauseum….

From the teddies on her bed in her childlike bedroom to the picture of her holding a baby grow smiling into the camera and the article where she’s quoted about working in the NNU, it all goes towards the image she is IMO constantly trying to project. Which IMO is why dr B thought ‘not nice Lucy’..

All MOO

 

[marynnu]

IMO LL is experienced in portraying an image of angelic nurse. She refuted anything that threatens this image, the falsifying documents, harming babies, the affair with doc choc, falling out with colleagues, being bored at work, texting in clinical areas, making mistakes etc etc ad nauseum….

From the teddies on her bed in her childlike bedroom to the picture of her holding a baby grow smiling into the camera and the article where she’s quoted about working in the NNU, it all goes towards the image she is IMO constantly trying to project. Which IMO is why dr B thought ‘not nice Lucy’..

All MOO

In her defence, I don't think she had a childlike bedroom - I believe that was the spare room, decor inherited from previous owners. And what have you got against teddy bears?

 

[Lincoln34]

At this point, I’m going to be really interested in the judges summing up of this case. He could, if he chose, remind the jury that Letby has lied on numerous occasions , so they can, if they choose, disregard anything she said on the stand that is contradicted by other evidence. At the moment, defence witnesses that appear next week will be crucial in a way they weren’t before Letby chose to take the stand.
all imo.

He’s going to have to be OH SO CAREFUL in the summing up IMO. No grounds for appeal please!

 

[ShireChe]

I find this logic baffling, with all due respect. Isn’t her being led away PART of the arrest? I’ll ask a police friend of mine to define it better and report back, but I don’t believe an arrest is purely the act of saying “you’re under arrest” and that’s it. And even if she had then been led away and you’re taking that as a separate event, she still claims she was in her pyjamas and NJ argued she wasn’t.

The actual act of the arrest is when a person gets read their rights and told what they are under suspicion of. At that point you are no longer free to leave. What happens next can vary, but in most cases it would be you taken by police car to the nearest holding cell to be processed and await legal representation and interview

 

[Blondiexoxo]

In her defence, I don't think she had a childlike bedroom - I believe that was the spare room, decor inherited from previous owners. And what have you got against teddy bears?

I’m talking about her actual bedroom with fairy lights round the headboard and teddies on her bed, I don’t have anything against teddies personally but when we are looking at the bedroom of an alleged murderer in combination with all the other evidence we’ve heard about her, claiming not to know what ‘going commando’ means and the notes where she has written lyrics to a song over and over with love hearts, names of her cats and old pets, doc choc with love hearts… she kind of reminds me of a teenager.

She admits to feeling ‘suffocated’ by her parents in messages and like she has to be close by, regularly going on holiday with them always looking for praise etc… I just wonder if as an only child have they babied her and showered her with praise?

I’m not saying it’s abnormal to be close to parents either by the way, just when you look at it all collectively with the accusations it gives me an impression of someone who is a bit childlike. All IMO though.

 

[MachinaCollecta]

In this instance, the officers must have had warrants for the arrest of LL. So they would have gone to her known location, knocked the door, informed her the grounds for arrest and read her rights. Usually they cuff people right there and then. That's the arrest bit.

Removing her to a different location then that's the 'taking into custody' bit. Not everybody arrested is taken into custody so it's not a default part of arrest.

All of that is regulated by PACE and scrutinised by defence lawyers for errors. Police need to get it right as once at the station they check in with the Custody Sargeant to prove they've done everything correctly so the person can be admitted into a holding cell.

Edit to add: I'm not saying at some point during the arrest / removal from her home, they didn't give her time to put the tracksuit and shoes on as IMO they probably would have done if she wasn't already wearing them. They would have done that under guard. They also allow people to use the toilet, under guard. They're not looking to rack up human rights violations in this type of instance if you see what I mean.

Very interesting info! Thank you for that. Clears things up a little in terms of the process.

 

[Becci]

In her defence, I don't think she had a childlike bedroom - I believe that was the spare room, decor inherited from previous owners. And what have you got against teddy bears?

Lol i thought the same. Her bedroom looks nice & more plain really.

 

[Blondiexoxo]

The notes really baffle me because in some ways they are like a depressed teenager writing song lyrics and dramatics about love and hurt and ‘you said you would stand by me’ ‘please help me’ then there’s clinical terms mixed in and names of colleagues.

I just imagine her on her bed sobbing into her teddies with Craig David blasting in the background writing down random thoughts as they come into her head. But on a teeny tiny post it note trying to cram it all on. She can go from texting that she’s making a timeline of events and saying ‘if they have nothing on me they’ll look silly’ thinking rationally to this absolute word salad of a very disturbed train of thought, very strange almost like her subconscious is a child crying out for help yet consciously an adult in pure panic, trying to think rationally but in ‘meltdown mode’ she’s reverted back to wanting someone to help her, like when you are a child and you think your parents can fix everything and make it all better.

All MOO though. I don’t think those notes will ever make sense no matter how many times we look at them…

 

[Blondiexoxo]

Lol i thought the same. Her bedroom looks nice & more plain really.

I promise I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with her bedroom or teddies on their own. But collectively with the evidence of her personality it adds to the idea that she’s a bit immature in some ways IMO. Maybe child like wasn’t the best choice of words to describe it. It’s more teenage girl type from my perspective but I understand everyone has different tastes and not everyone is a clean freak. I’m bothered massively by clutter myself so it probably appears very messy to me but just average to others. It just reminds me of my daughters room how she doesn’t put things back in their place!

I agree it’s quite plain, yet untidy kind of like a teenagers room with clothes everywhere and stuff in bags. The unmade bed makes sense though as I imagine the police took her by surprise and she never had chance to make it!

We all perceive things very differently though and I know she worked long hours and lots of shifts so probably didn’t have chance to tidy.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

<snipped by me for focus>
All MOO though. I don’t think those notes will ever make sense no matter how many times we look at them…

Maybe it is not possible to apply sane and rational explanations to that which is not sane or rational?

Those notes do remind me of the tropes psychological horror movies rely on. The perfectly innocent seeming upstanding person, often in a trusted position and with whom LE have been liaising, shock horror slowly transpires to be 'the one' and the penny slowly starts to drop. Followed by the 'big reveal' where they discover a secret room (lair) filled with completely deranged scraps of paper, writing on the wall, and photographs pinned up.

In this instance we have the 'paper collection', the notes, the dishonesty, Facebook searches, and the illicit affair reveal.

Edited to include FB - the modern equivalent of photographs pinned up LOL

 

[Dotta]

Those notes do remind me of the tropes psychological horror movies rely on. The perfectly innocent seeming upstanding person, often in a trusted position and with whom LE have been liaising, shock horror slowly transpires to be 'the one' and the penny slowly starts to drop. Followed by the 'big reveal' where they discover a secret room (lair) filled with completely deranged scraps of paper, writing on the wall, and photographs pinned up.

In this instance we have the 'paper collection', the notes, the dishonesty, and the illicit affair reveal.

OMG
It reminds me of movie nights with my friends as a teen.
So,so scary films!

 

[Dcflag]

Lies so far - lets compile a list:

Not using her phone for personal stuff in work / on the ward

Shreddergate

Collecting paper and not finding that worrisome in the slightest

Pyjama-arrest

Although it comes under using her phone at work, I think we should make a special mention of her never using her phone at cotside. There’s been lots of evidence that shows she’s either falsifying medical notes by writing the wrong timing of cares on them, feeding the babies too quickly/hurrying through the cares or she’s haphazardly feeding babies one handed while texting.

 

[Blondiexoxo]

Maybe it is not possible to apply sane and rational explanations to that which is not sane or rational?

Those notes do remind me of the tropes psychological horror movies rely on. The perfectly innocent seeming upstanding person, often in a trusted position and with whom LE have been liaising, shock horror slowly transpires to be 'the one' and the penny slowly starts to drop. Followed by the 'big reveal' where they discover a secret room (lair) filled with completely deranged scraps of paper, writing on the wall, and photographs pinned up.

In this instance we have the 'paper collection', the notes, the dishonesty, and the illicit affair reveal.

I agree completely, I have wondered if the defence have offered to get her mental state assessed but LL has refused? The notes are alarming and I think anyone investigating would have had the thought of maybe some psychosis or paranoia going on. I would have wanted to know if there were any other similar notes found from before the redeployment of ramblings such as this?

Maybe she refused to go down that route, maybe she thought if they brought her psychological state into it then it would only add fuel to the prosecutions assertion that she did this?

The song lyrics and name doodling I can look past. It’s the whole ‘I killed them on purpose because I’m not good enough to care for them’ that I just cannot think of a reasonable explanation for. I could understand if she had written over and over ‘I did not do this’ ‘I did not harm any babies’ ‘I have never harmed a child’. But by the looks of it she hasn’t.

Like you say it’s like finding a serial killers trophies, the ramblings of a mad woman, the keepsake box with roses on the top with a single handover note from 2010 inside. All MOO and only if guilty.

 

[Blondiexoxo]

Maybe it is not possible to apply sane and rational explanations to that which is not sane or rational?

Those notes do remind me of the tropes psychological horror movies rely on. The perfectly innocent seeming upstanding person, often in a trusted position and with whom LE have been liaising, shock horror slowly transpires to be 'the one' and the penny slowly starts to drop. Followed by the 'big reveal' where they discover a secret room (lair) filled with completely deranged scraps of paper, writing on the wall, and photographs pinned up.

In this instance we have the 'paper collection', the notes, the dishonesty, Facebook searches, and the illicit affair reveal.

Edited to include FB - the modern equivalent of photographs pinned up LOL

Sorry to quote you again I just have to add, the Facebook searches and handover notes IMO is akin to stalking. Observing from afar, watching the result of what you have (allegedly) caused. It all adds to the thrill, pleasure and satisfaction for some killers - and stalkers. That way the thrill doesn’t just end with the killing. It is prolonged, when you see pictures of the people involved it can bring back feelings from the time of the act, it’s like re living it from a distance, and the profiles are there to be searched up any time you feel like it. Especially IMO occasions such as anniversaries, Christmas, birthdays, the times when the families are most likely reflecting and more likely to post publicly about their grief.
MOO

 

[Dcflag]

I agree I think she comes across as teenage-ish. I’m not sure if I can put my finger on why though.

I suppose for me the notes scream teenage angst. She definitely goes to length to portray herself as kind and assertive, I think the denial of what in all probability was an affair (whether physical or not) is perceived by her to be damaging that perception hence the denial. The pretending she doesn’t know what go commando means is hysterical. Because aside from the fact that I genuinely believe there are very few people who don’t know what it means, wouldn’t you ask at that time someone says it to you?

I think every now and then there are flashes of something coming through. One that really really stands out to me was the text exchange where she tells her colleague to forget it and her colleague says she will not. It didn’t seem like a friendly exchange to me, and it hinted to me that LL does kick off a lot, and then tries to brush it off, hence why the colleague said she wouldn’t forget about it. (I THINK this was with MT about being in room 1?) It reminds me a little of the poster here who said about that flash of her snapping back being a really stark contrast to her general perception of herself.

I also noticed she seems to flip through “close friends” along the way. I don’t know if it’s just down to reporting or if it appears that way because we’re only hearing in context of the case but to me I feel like you can see clear patterns of her venting to a colleague/friend and then they disappear and there’s a new person in their place (ending with dr choc assuming the role).

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

IANAL but should say the reason neither she nor her defence have voluntarily submitted her for psychiatric or psychological evaluation is that it would supply explanation / motivation towards her guilt but do nothing to defend her innocence. If that makes sense?

Are the court or prosecution allowed to demand psychiatric / psychological evaluation?

Someone's state of mind would surely affect sentencing and which type of institution a prisoner is to serve their time and what medical welfare they have a right to?

Also in the UK there's the legal argument of not being culpable for one's crimes due to severe mental health problems. I'm so confused. But it falls within the remit of is this person 'mad or bad'?

JMO MOO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Sorry to quote you again I just have to add, the Facebook searches and handover notes IMO is akin to stalking. Observing from afar, watching the result of what you have (allegedly) caused. It all adds to the thrill, pleasure and satisfaction for some killers - and stalkers. That way the thrill doesn’t just end with the killing. It is prolonged, when you see pictures of the people involved it can bring back feelings from the time of the act, it’s like re living it from a distance, and the profiles are there to be searched up any time you feel like it. Especially IMO occasions such as anniversaries, Christmas, birthdays, the times when the families are most likely reflecting and more likely to post publicly about their grief.
MOO

Yes, the stalking!

Big part of psychological horror movie tropes too... the perp has access to confidential information of the victim(s) and not only observe them from afar but begins to interfere with and control the life of the victim. Then gains sadistic pleasure from watching the victim's life collapse around them and enjoys observing their confusion and pain. Because the victim can never understand what's going on and how all these things are happening. And nobody but nobody suspects the perp. Terrifying.

 

[Becci]

Yes, the stalking!

Big part of psychological horror movie tropes too... the perp has access to confidential information of the victim(s) and not only observe them from afar but begins to interfere with and control the life of the victim. Then gains sadistic pleasure from watching the victim's life collapse around them and enjoys observing their confusion and pain. Because the victim can never understand what's going on and how all these things are happening. And nobody but nobody suspects the perp. Terrifying.

Yeah but that's why i keep an open mind i guess. Nobody suspects the perp!!
She could be a victim of this type of thing but it's obviously just my opinion.
It's a right tough case & one that probably could never be proved without a confession imo

 

[Cluedoneit]

IANAL but should say the reason neither she nor her defence have voluntarily submitted her for psychiatric or psychological evaluation is that it would supply explanation / motivation towards her guilt but do nothing to defend her innocence. If that makes sense?

Are the court or prosecution allowed to demand psychiatric / psychological evaluation?

Someone's state of mind would surely affect sentencing and which type of institution a prisoner is to serve their time and what medical welfare they have a right to?

Also in the UK there's the legal argument of not being culpable for one's crimes due to severe mental health problems. I'm so confused. But it falls within the remit of is this person 'mad or bad'?

JMO MOO

I have a funny feeling that any evidence regarding Letby’s psychological state has been legally argued and decided that it would prejudice the jury in a positive or negative way. If she’s found guilty it’ll come out in sentencing. It’s highly unlikely a GP diagnosed her with PTSD, so she’s had some level of evaluation and found fit for triaL. She’s also not legally insane or the case would be very different.

 

[Blondiexoxo]

Some other mentions of Mel during cross-exam -

LL: "Unfortunately I've seen my fair share at the women's but you are supported differently & here it's like people want to tell you how to think/Feel. Anyway. Onwards & upwards. Just shame i'm on with Mel & [colleague].Sophie in 1 so haven't got her to talk to either."

"Anyway, forget it. I can only talk about it properly with those who knew him and Mel not interested so I'll overcome it myself. You get some sleep X"

Mr Johnson says if this was the Melanie Taylor who Letby had said "potentially" caused a child's death. Letby: "Potentially, yes."
JJK: "That's a bit mean isn't it. Don't have to know him to understand we've all been there. Yep off to bed now x"

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, May 18 - prosecution cross-examines Letby

A temperature of 36.1C is recorded for Child I at 11am, and the 'hot cot' temperature was turned up.
Letby denies by this time she had "fallen out" with medical colleagues Ashleigh Hudson, Melanie Taylor and one other.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, May 25 - cross-examination continues

Messages are sent by Letby at 8.26pm [Ffs Mel asking me how to make up 12.5%],

8.29pm: 'No I've passed her folder but now asking if can run via cannula- she needs to look herself!'
Letby says she was "not happy" with Mel.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 7 - cross-examination continues

Nurse Melanie Taylor, at about 1pm, entered room 2 and said 'he doesn’t look as well now as he did earlier. Do you think we should move him back to [room] 1 to be safe?'
Letby declined. She said she doesn't remember being very dismissive.
Letby says "That's Mel's opinion" to the evidence that Melanie Taylor had told the jury she felt Letby was 'undermining her authority'.
She adds that Melanie Taylor had the right to override that and 'take Child O off her'.

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, June 8 - cross-examination continues

LL sounded annoyed at Mel on the night baby C died. Also, from messages it sounds like Mel’s request to go into room 1 was granted which may have made LL jealous when hers wasn’t. Here’s another text from that night, mentioning Mel again…

LL: "Not the vented baby necessarily. I just feel I need to be in 1 to get the image out of my head, Mel has said the same and [colleague] let her go. Being in 3 is eating me up, all I can see is him in 1"

From messages it’s clear LL did have some kind of axe to grind with Mel, whether it was a falling out or not it’s pretty obvious she had a problem with her IMO.

I wonder who the other colleagues were that LL seemed to have a problem with, and which collapses they were either the designated nurse for or on shift for? I think Sophie Ellis is another nurse LL took a dislike to. She was on shift for 4 collapses, Mel for 7. Could working with people she didn’t like have angered her if guilty?

MOO