UK - Nurse Lucy Letby, Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #26

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I am so confused. Is this BM’s mission? To confuse the jury in the hope that by the time this week is over they’ll be that fed up, bewildered and tired that NJ’s entire closing speech will have been completely wiped from their memory?
MOO

Seriously, this is going on til Friday?
 
12:50pm

Mr Myers refers to the 'list of similarities' that Mr Johnson used at the close of his speech.
He says the lists are "not similar" and "how on earth" they are supposed to show a pattern of criminal behaviour. He says they are "masses of lists of differences" He says it is "dead right" they are a list of "dissimilarities".
He says Child I features on eight of the lists. Child J is on 'none of them'. Child K is on one of the list. Child A and Child B on two, Child N, six, out of '11 similar features'.
He says the alternate reading is that for the babies a list does apply to, the remaining are for which they didn't. He says there is a 'mirror image', that a list which features seven babies, means that 10 babies did not have that similarity, and for one which features three babies, means it didn't happen for 14 babies.
"These lists mean nothing...unless it is linked to the harm alleged."
He says the list 'presumes a lot', that the defendant is guilty.
He cites the list of discolouration features for some of the children, which staff had not seen before or since. He says each discolouration has to deal with individual babies, whether there was sub-optimal care, and on the quality of the evidence featured. He says for Child A, the descriptions given were 'relatively poor'. He says for Child M, one witness saw a discoluration - Dr Ravi Jayaram. He says the basis of Child H's discolouration was a father's account for a description of the fingers.
He says the approach of the list is 'prejudged', 'misconceived and unfair', and the evidence is "very variable" and "create a fundamentally unfair situation".



eta - this is what I was saying about the puzzle pieces yesterday, he is trying to destroy the picture, ripping off the connectors, saying they no longer fit.

If the jury doesn't buy it, it means the evidence will have been well tested from upside down and inside out.
 
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He says 'there's been no reference to it' at the conclusion of the case, he says 'we think we know why' - 'it is obvious now that it isn't complete, this list. It's missing at least two events or maybe three' that could be considered 'harm events'
https://twitter.com/MrDanDonoghue

Mr Myers says when other events are added on, it would show Ms Letby wasn't present - he says the basis of this chart starts to 'wobble
Mr Myers is now referencing the other lists the prosecution have produced - last week Nick Johnson KC outlined 11 areas in which the Crown say there are common factors

Mr Myers says they are not a list of similarities - he says they are a list of dis-similarities. He says there are masses of differences

One of the categories is babies that were unusual in colour. Mr Myers says 'Babies can be – it's not a basis for convicting people of murder'

He says the lists are 'unfair' as they encourage the jury to the 'bypass' the evidence
 
12:04pm

Mr Myers refers to the theory of air embolus, and if that 'works' each time, why would someone change it up to administering insulin.
He says it is 'awful' to think about it, but to go with the prosecution case, he asks why the methods used varied.
He says the prosecution referred to levels of insulin were doubled for Child L than for Child F. He says for Child F the level of insulin, from the lab result, was 4,657, whereas for Child L it was 1,099, and the insulin/insulin c-peptide ratio was lower, and 'must be a quarter of the strength'. He says "that was evidence, it was wrong".
He says if there was an intent to kill, then the dose wouldn't be a quarter of the strength second time round. He says whatever happened, "that wasn't an intention to kill".

I thought it was the other way around? Didn't we discuss the prosecution's claim that the second insulin record was much higher implying intent to kill?

If it was the first which was higher how come it wasn't immediately challenged as being simply untrue?

I'm confused now!
 
This isn’t making any sense.
He had countless opportunities to cross examine on these “ points “ but didn’t, so why not ?
Throw enough mud at the wall and see what sticks is springing to mind.
 
I thought it was the other way around? Didn't we discuss the prosecution's claim that the second insulin record was much higher implying intent to kill?

If it was the first which was higher how come it wasn't immediately challenged as being simply untrue?

I'm confused now!

I'm "guessing" really...but I think the defence are basing that on the c peptide result alone ..which is deceptive as that would just show the picture at the exact time of that blood results.
From what I understand..so don't take it as fact as yet ..the Endocrinology consultant looked at the blood sugar results across the whole time frame which showed more insulin was used the second time
 
I just want to reply to him here. :D

It's her case that these issues caused the collapses and deaths. If she can't cite the issues under cross-examination there's a big problem with her defence, because it suggests it's not actually her defence, someone else came up with it for her!

She was perfectly capable of answering "I can't comment on that" when it suited her.

This is the proverbial smoke. IMO
I also think that while she can’t necessarily attribute staff shortages or too many babies being the cause of deaths, as a member of staff who worked those shifts she could absolutely attest to short staffing issues if they existed. I don’t recall the defence asking anyone about their working experiences are, whether they felt pulled apart or overstretched within their care roles. Or whether there was more babies on the unit that average in that year etc
 
He says there was a third 'harm event', not featured on the indictment, for Child G. He says Dr Sandie Bohin had said there were no further projectile vomits. Mr Myers says he referred to a third event happened on October 15, 2015 by Ashleigh Hudson, at 7.20pm...'one vomit, projectile, quite large in size'.
What was said about projectile vomits? Didn’t prosecution say a baby this small doesn’t simply projectile vomit so it’s suspicious? But it did here?
 
I was referring to our discussion on evidence of bad character and when it is inadmissible.

I am trying to be very careful about what I say in order not to upset the mods.

so, for example, if a person is on trial for rape and there has been a ruling that evidence of bad character cannot be introduced, the defence could not I don’t believe say “ either Explanation A is true, or else the accused just one day out of the blue decided to rape someone” if in fact the accused had previously been accused of committing a sexual assault on another person (perhaps not rape, but still sexual assault) but the victim decided not to press charges .

As a real life example, Ian Huntley had no criminal convictions prior to the murder of Holly and Jessica but he has been reported to social services on a number of occasions over sexual assaults and relationships with underage girls. That could not be mentioned during his trial.
I know what you're saying and am taking care with my wording too. What I'm trying to say is if there had been any "dodgy events" prior to June 2015 that doesn't mean they must have been raised at that time and ruled out by the judge at this trial. Concerns or allegations can be raised at any point, even years later and would be investigated separately from this trial, if there even were any. JMO
 
I thought it was the other way around? Didn't we discuss the prosecution's claim that the second insulin record was much higher implying intent to kill?

If it was the first which was higher how come it wasn't immediately challenged as being simply untrue?

I'm confused now!
from the prosecutions closing speech -

12:33pm

He says the level of insulin in Child L was double that found in Child F several months earlier.
NJ: "That tells you a lot about intention, doesn't it?"

He says for Child A, Letby was interviewed about it and said in the aftermath she had 'asked for the [dextrose] bag to be kept' in June 2015. It was put in a sluice room, and a colleague had confirmed this was done.
He says that Letby knew no-one subsequently examined the bag.
He says Letby "taunted the police" by repeatedly asking the question if police 'had the bag' [which had insulin in].
"She thought the fact they didn't have the bag would give her a free pass.
"But she was wrong, because what she didn't know was insulin c-peptide."

12:36pm

Mr Johnson says experts had given evidence from the laboratory to show results [indicating insulin and insulin c-pep levels] from there were "reliable", and Letby had accepted this in evidence.

--

Child L's dextrose bag, as Prof Hindmarsh, in evidence, said it had to be by 9.30am.
A blood sample taken for Child L taken at 10am showed an increase in the amount of dextrose given but a drop in the level of blood sugar - "when the opposite should have been true".
Mr Johnson says the "fingerprint of evidence" is the ratio between insulin and insulin c-peptide later recorded.
The 'podding' of the blood sample was delayed due to Child M's collapse, Mr Johnson says, and the timing of the sample taken must be taken from several accounts. He says it "must have been taken about 3.45pm".

2:23pm

The blood sample "would have been treated as urgent" and the nurse said she had been distracted by "an emergency" with Child M, which was timed at 4pm.
The blood was put into a vial and envelope and labelled.
The request for the blood test was entered at 3.45pm on a 'lab specimen internal inquiry' form at the Countess of Chester Pathology. The form is shown to the court.
The process and analysis were "interrupted" by "Lucy Letby's attack on [Child M]," Mr Johnson adds.

2:30pm

An infusion therapy sheet for a 10% dextrose prescription is at 3.40pm. Mr Johnson says this explains why the lab result shows a slightly higher blood sugar reading for Child L than the other readings, and that the blood sample was taken at 3.45pm.
Dr John Gibbs said the low blood sugar level should have meant the level of insulin in Child L was also low. He said it had "never occurred to him" that someone was administering insulin to Child L.
He said he had never received the lab results for Child L - they went to junior doctors who "didn't appreciate its significance" at the time.

2:34pm

Mr Johnson said scientist Dr Sarah Davies had phoned through the results to the hospital "as they were so unusual".
The lab at Liverpool was "performing very well" and Mr Johnson says it can be discounted as a possibility that the lab results were in any way "misleading".
He adds "it speaks volumes" that the levels of insulin were double that found for Child [F] months earlier.
"The poisoner, Lucy Letby, upped the dose for [Child L]."
He says, for timings, the insulin was put in "after the bag was hung" for Child L.


2:41pm

Mr Johnson says Letby was co-responsible for hanging up the bag for Child L at noon on April 9, and had also co-signed for the previous bag on April 8 at noon.
Prof Hindmarsh says the bag was "not poisoned" before midnight on April 8/9, as the blood sugar readings are "following an upward trend" for Child L.
Insulin "must have been put in" between midnight at 10am on April 9.
Mr Johnson says insulin went into the bag sometime before or at 9.36am, given insulin's half-life of 24 minutes.
Mr Johnson says it "had to have been a targeted attack", and is "not a random poisoning".
He says "whoever is responsible" must have been on duty between midnight a[nd] 9.36am.
Mr Johnson says the jury must ask if it could have been a different person. He says "it must have been the same person", and they could "get away with it" as long as "they didn't do it too often".
He says Letby came on duty between 7.30am-8am on April 9

2:43pm

The insulin that poisoned Child L "was put into more than one bag" and all the staff on duty said they were not responsible for that.
Mr Johnson says the first poisoning was when the bag was already hanging, and the second one was administered to Child L as well.
He says at 9.30am on April 9, Mary Griffith was in room 4. She was not working on the day when Child [F ]was poisoned.

2:49pm

A third bag was being put together for Child L at the time Child M collapsed.
"Somebody also spiked that bag," Mr Johnson says. He says it was "spiked" sometime after it was hung up at 4.30pm.
Mr Johnson asks if somebody did this to "frame" Lucy Letby, and if she didn't do this, then somebody also targeted Child [F], and targeted Lucy Letby to take the blame.
"We suggest that is not a reasonable possibility - that is why all the other cases are so important, they are not coincidences."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Monday, June 19 - closing speeches
 
I am so confused. Is this BM’s mission? To confuse the jury in the hope that by the time this week is over they’ll be that fed up, bewildered and tired that NJ’s entire closing speech will have been completely wiped from their memory?
MOO

Seriously, this is going on til Friday?

It really does make you wonder what is a reasonable amount of duress and anguish to put jurors through. Not directly in relation to BM's summing up but in relation to this whole case.

A friend of mine did Jury Service recently and found it a very surreal experience and one they struggled with in and of itself just by dint of withdrawing from their regular life and attending the court every day whilst also being asked not to research or discuss the case - it's quite an emotional and mental strain. Plus the other dynamics of being in a group of people one wouldn't normally interact with and the personality styles of the other jurors.

Being on a jury for months and months on end and having to digest this horrific and shocking emotive information plus all the technical and medical details as well as bearing the weight of knowing that whichever way it goes either they've had a serial killer in front of them -or- a woman has been wrongly accused of the most horrific crimes on earth, wow, it doesn't bear thinking about. I seriously hope these jurors are being well attended to, have counselling and emotional support and are being debriefed (would they be allowed to?) because otherwise the weight of this case surely must be too much to bear?

JMO MOO
 
Poor showing for me so far. There’s lots of things here he could’ve brought up with the witnesses and didn’t. So now we’re just taking his word for it in regards to these general shortages and mistakes that are now suddenly contributing factors. Why did he not question the experts about ethers other harm events? Is it because they could give a sensible answer to explain them?
 
I am so confused. Is this BM’s mission? To confuse the jury in the hope that by the time this week is over they’ll be that fed up, bewildered and tired that NJ’s entire closing speech will have been completely wiped from their memory?
MOO

Seriously, this is going on til Friday?

I actually think that is exactly the plan.

To exhaust them with yet random 'information' which apparently 'undermines' the evidence, to the extent that by the time they go out to deliberate they are confused about the pattern presented by NJ and no longer feel confident that the evidence they were presented with was as coherent as it felt at the time.

Maybe, given the sheer amount of evidence his client has against her, and the way she behaved on the stand, this is the best he can do. These tactics can be very successful, and all he needs to do is hope they work on enough jurors to avoid a unanimous guilty verdict.

Will be interesting to see whether the people in here who hopped off the fence onto the guilty side are tempted to hop back on or over to the other side after reading his closing statements. Might be quite telling as to what the jury themselves are feeling.
 
12:37pm

Mr Myers says there is a 'harm event' for Child C, as identified by experts, on June 12, 2015, which is not in the sequence of events, and is not on the list. He says Letby was not on duty at that time. He says the prosecution are "not that bothered" for that one as Letby "wasn't on duty".
Here is the incident Meyers is referring to, with child C:

Thursday October 27th 2022 - Live updates from the trial

Day 10 of Prosecution Case

Child C

Yvonne Griffiths, CoCH Neonatal Unit Deputy Manager & Senior Nurse -

Re. Child C's medical notes for Day-Shift 12th June 2015


3:59pm

The court is now hearing evidence from Yvonne Griffiths, who was the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit deputy manager in June 2015 and a senior nursing practitioner.
An 'admin error' had resulted in Ms Griffiths' notes for child C being written in the file for a different child, but the error was spotted and rectified quickly.
The note is written on June 14 on reflection notes from June 12, with care from 8am that day.
The notes record "assistance with ventilation by NCPAP", with oxygen levels varying from 37% to 25%.
Child C was "unsettled at times". Ms Griffiths said he "only loved to be held by parents in a kangaroo style".
The long line was administered, and at 6.30pm, 'bile noted on blanket'. Ms Griffiths said with any baby there is a worry with introducing feeds too early. On this occasion bile came out "spontaneously".
Ms Griffiths said the naso-gastric tube was aspirated as a matter of procedure and 2mls of black stained fluid appeared.
Child C was "too unsettled" for a lumbar puncture - plan to reassess later".
Ms Griffiths said they would not want to take the risk if the baby was too active, as a lumbar puncture would involve a needle.
Ms Griffiths added she came in the morning after Child C had died, to assist staff.

Cross-Examination



Mr Myers says Child C was "at the limit" [for weight] for being accepted into care at the Countess of Chester Hospital.
Ms Griffiths had said, in a police statement, the hospital did not often care for babies of that weight.
She tells the court there is a decision to be made whether the baby is suitable to be cared for at the Countess, or risking transfer to a tertiary centre, and that is made following consultation.



Ms Griffiths said, in the police statement, "it was very uncertain" what the outcome would be for Child C.
She confirms she was the designated nurse for Child C on June 12. She also confirms Letby was not in the unit that day.
Mr Myers talks through the nursing notes from the previous night shift, for June 11-12. At that point no bile aspirates had been recorded.

He refers to a note about Child C requiring an increase in oxygen when handling as Child C was desaturating.

Ms Griffiths says, in relation to the air in the stomach, the nurses "did everything" they could through the naso-gastric tube to aspirate air.


The note referring to bile found on the blanket and 2mls of black stained fluid being aspirated from June 12 at 6.30pm is referred to.

Mr Myers asks if dark bile is a matter for concern.

"Any bile is a matter of caution," Ms Griffiths replies, and feeds would be stopped as a precaution.
She added Child C did not desaturate when vomiting a small amount of fluid. She agrees it was important for close monitoring on Child C.

Mr Myers: "It is a potentially serious issue, isn't it?"
Ms Griffiths: "Yes - and I did get the doctor to review."


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

OK, IMO, this^^^ is a red herring. There is no reason that 'incident' on June 12th with Baby C, would be listed on that spread sheet for unexplained deaths/collapses.

Baby C was very small and premature and only 2 days old on the 12th of June. She needed CPAP support for a short time and had a very small amount of fluid/bile aspirated ---BUT SHE DID NOT FULLY DESATURATE ----she needed observation and close monitoring but it was not a collapse.

happened for the babies when Letby was not on duty. Child C on June 12, 2015; Child I, August 23; and Child N, June 14, 2016, night.

 
To exhaust them with yet random 'information' which apparently 'undermines' the evidence, to the extent that by the time they go out to deliberate they are confused about the pattern presented by NJ and no longer feel confident that the evidence they were presented with was as coherent as it felt at the time.
This pretty much fits the definition of gaslighting IMO.
 
It really does make you wonder what is a reasonable amount of duress and anguish to put jurors through. Not directly in relation to BM's summing up but in relation to this whole case.

A friend of mine did Jury Service recently and found it a very surreal experience and one they struggled with in and of itself just by dint of withdrawing from their regular life and attending the court every day whilst also being asked not to research or discuss the case - it's quite an emotional and mental strain. Plus the other dynamics of being in a group of people one wouldn't normally interact with and the personality styles of the other jurors.

Being on a jury for months and months on end and having to digest this horrific and shocking emotive information plus all the technical and medical details as well as bearing the weight of knowing that whichever way it goes either they've had a serial killer in front of them -or- a woman has been wrongly accused of the most horrific crimes on earth, wow, it doesn't bear thinking about. I seriously hope these jurors are being well attended to, have counselling and emotional support and are being debriefed (would they be allowed to?) because otherwise the weight of this case surely must be too much to bear?

JMO MOO
I read in the Crown Court Compendium Part 1 (page 48 if anyone is interested)

13. Although the jury must not discuss the case with anyone outside their own number they are allowed to talk amongst themselves about the case, as it progresses. However, they should not do so in the jury assembly area (where there is always a potential to be overheard) but only when they are all together in the privacy of their jury room: they should not discuss the case in “twos and threes”. The jury should wait until they have heard all of the evidence before forming any final views. This issue was considered in Edwards93 where one of the points taken on appeal related to the speed in which the jury returned its verdict. The court considered it likely that the jury would have already discussed the evidence as it was presented in the course of the trial. At paragraph 21 the court stated:

“In our judgment juries, like any Tribunal deciding facts, are entitled to consider and discuss the case as it goes along, so long as they do so when all members of the jury or Tribunal are present and so long as they keep an open mind until they have heard all of the evidence, the speeches and the directions. For this reason, many trial judges remind the jury that they are entitled to discuss matters among themselves, so long as they are all present and so long as they keep an open mind until they have heard all of the evidence, speeches and directions. In long-running cases juries are sometimes provided with a room so that they can have confidential discussions when they are all present as the case goes along.”

 
What was said about projectile vomits? Didn’t prosecution say a baby this small doesn’t simply projectile vomit so it’s suspicious? But it did here?
BM is trying to confuse things. I will go find the original testimony but IIRC, for Child G, the projectile vomits were allegedly caused by severe overfeeding by the defendant. So now Mr Myers says a third event happened on October 15...

If this poor child had already previously been force fed milk and possibly air, then it makes sense that they might continue having vomiting issues for awhile. JMO
 
He says the alternate reading is that for the babies a list does apply to, the remaining are for which they didn't. He says there is a 'mirror image', that a list which features seven babies, means that 10 babies did not have that similarity, and for one which features three babies, means it didn't happen for 14 babies.
"These lists mean nothing...unless it is linked to the harm alleged."
The thing's he's missing is that it's not always possible for every case to appear on every list. For example the list of babies who were allegedly attacked right after their parents left during daytime hours. Any babies where the parents didn't leave their babies alone during daytime hours while LL was on shift, couldn't appear on that list.

In those cases that opportunity wasn't there but they may appear on another list like the list of babies allegedly attacked when designated nurses had just gone on a break on a night shift. Or they may appear on no list at all if another random new opportunity presented itself. All if guilty.

Dismissing a list as irrelevant just because not every baby appeared on it is madness IMO

JMO, if guilty.
 
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