UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #3

[infinit]

Being socially awkward can explain the bath situation but what about the lies in the medical notes?

I mean if I was to play devil's advocate when you compare a very recently bereaved parent vs a nurse, I would typically say it's the parent who is most likely to misremember something. There is also the possibility that she wrote the notes hours later and after a busy shift forgot the odd detail of who exactly said what and in which order.

 

[Whitehall 1212]

This sounds like like something that could only be caused by malice or incompetence, at which point you'd think the whole ward management team is going nuts and very quickly the closest people to the child (doctors, nurses and parents) would all be under suspicion. Does anyone know if there would be any reason why it might just be considered "one of those things" or at least not unusual in this situation?

I would not be surprised if the defence highlight that the whole ward management did not go nuts and simply considered NN deaths/collapses to be expected in such an environment.

The defence may demonstrate acceptance and an attitude of 'nothing to see here - keep calm and carry on''.

If the unit as a whole raised no significant concerns, the defence may seek to show that was because there were none.

It was only after the RCPCH were asked to do a review on the NN unit (September 2016), which was far from glowing, that the hospital management commenced a review into deaths/collapses. How robust and objective their methodology was we don't know, but in May 2017 they approached Cheshire Police, who commenced their investigation. The scope of the Cheshire Police investigation is also relevant. What incidents were in the mix and how were they selected?

What of the other cases when LL was not present? Where do they feature in all of this? Exactly how many other deaths and collapses were there when LL was not on duty or engaged elsewhere?

Was there a casual attitude in the way the unit operated? Had 'hands on' management failed to such a degree that the department could be described as laissez-faire?

Mr Johnson KC in opening the case for the prosecution is presenting the Crown's argument. It's meant to make us all sit up straight and think OMG! It is his profession and he's obviously very good at it.

Mr Johnson is out of the blocks like a rat up a drainpipe, as this is the order of service in our adversarial justice system. He gets to go first. The defence get last dibs in summing up their case, which will be around March/April 2023. After this the judge instructs the jury on relevant points of law, who then retire to consider their verdicts.

I wonder how many will be going 'hmmm, I'm not so sure now' after LL's defence counsel has countered the Crown's opening?

The real evidential weight and can be assessed more readily once the witnesses for the prosecution and afterwards the defence start giving their evidence, in the months ahead.

 

[kittythehare]

According to BLISS, 11% of neonatal care patients are from multiples births (ie twins, triplets). So 89% of neonatal care patients are single births.

Yet out of the 17 cases she is implicated in, 8 are from multiple births.

Going by BLISS stats, you would expect only 2 of the 17 cases to be from multiples, not 8. That's over 50%

Surely there's something in that

Has to be.

 

[bastien]

Was she routinely assigned the more complex (and therefore moribund) cases?

Just to add to this, one of the cases detailed by the prosecution today mentioned that following the deterioration of one child (due to what they allege was attempted murder) their designated nurse was switched to LL as she was more qualified and senior than the previous designated nurse. So I imagine that the defence may bring this point up too

 

[arrogantcat]

Where was it reported that she was socially awkward?
I'm not challenging you, I genuinely didn't see it.

It was in the earlier, post-arrest press when there was precious little info out there.
Not sure if this is the exact quote I was thinking of but I did find this:

“After she was arrested, Jordan Sands, who knew Letby through a former girlfriend, told The Times that she was “quite awkward and geeky but seemed like a kind-hearted person”. A friend who asked not to be named described Letby as “an amazing person”

Source

 

[ZaZara]

According to BLISS, 11% of neonatal care patients are from multiples births (ie twins, triplets). So 89% of neonatal care patients are single births.

Yet out of the 17 cases she is implicated in, 8 are from multiple births.

Going by BLISS stats, you would expect only 2 of the 17 cases to be from multiples, not 8. That's over 50%

Surely there's something in that

BBM

No there is nothing in that. General statistics about the entire UK - you did not provide a link so I had to look it up - do not say anything about one specific place during a specific time. If 11% of neonatal care patients are from multiple births for the entire UK, it is entirely possible that one ward is filled with twins and triplets (and up) at a certain moment.

<modsnip>

 

[Marantz4250b]

The mums phone records correspond to her version of events though. With the phone call being made after 9, and also the feeding time was 9, no reason for the mum to bring the milk at 10?

LL's notes, I believe, referred to "the start of the shift" which was around 7:30-8am. I get the impression that because it was around 9am that the mother attended they were claiming that that wasn't "the start of the shift". I can totally understand that after 12 hours on duty then 9 am or even 10 am could reasonably feel like the start of the shift in real terms. None of that suggests a lie.

 

[kittythehare]

It was in the earlier, post-arrest press when there was precious little info out there.
Not sure if this is the exact quote I was thinking of but I did find this:

“After she was arrested, Jordan Sands, who knew Letby through a former girlfriend, told The Times that she was “quite awkward and geeky but seemed like a kind-hearted person”. A friend who asked not to be named described Letby as “an amazing person”

Source

Thanks for that link.
I had not seen it and if i throw the week in Ibiza into the middle of it, my brain splinters!

It doesn't matter much what I see in her, the big question is what she herself perceived if she is guilty as charged.

 

[Supernovae]

Mr Johnson KC in opening the case for the prosecution is presenting the Crown's argument. It's meant to make us all sit up straight and think OMG! It is his profession and he's obviously very good at it.

Mr Johnson is out of the blocks like a rat up a drainpipe as this is the order of service in our adversarial justice system. He gets to go first. The defence get last dibs in summing up their case, which will be around March/April 2023. After this the judge instructs the jury on relevant points of law, who then retire to consider their verdicts.

I wonder how many will be going 'hmmm, I'm not so sure now' after LL's defence counsel has countered the Crown's opening?

The real evidential weight and can be assessed more readily once the witnesses for the prosecution and afterwards the defence start giving their evidence, in the months ahead.

We don't have defence opening statements as a matter of course, in this country, but I'm sure I've heard of it happening, so I wonder if that's something the defence will elect to do in this case.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Where was it reported that she was socially awkward?
I'm not challenging you, I genuinely didn't see it.

Lots of the initial news reports made mention of that. It was a comment made by the ex boyfriend of someone she knew.

If you google her and read all the various reports and look at her pictures she seems anything but socially awkward. Socially awkward people don't usually pose with stripper poles and chug cheap cocktails direct from a 2 litre bucket.

 

[Dotta]

Lucy Letby was 'trying to kill baby when consultant walked in on her'

Dr Ravi Jayaram, a paediatric consultant, had helped deliver child K, who was born at 25 weeks on February 17 2016 at the Countess of Chester Hospital.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Supernovae]

Lots of the initial news reports made mention of that. It was a comment made by the ex boyfriend of someone she knew.

If you google her and read all the various reports and look at her pictures she seems anything but socially awkward. Socially awkward people don't usually pose with stripper poles and chug cheap cocktails from direct from a 2 litre bucket.

Social awkwardness and introversion aren't necessarily the same thing.

 

[merrypason]

We don't have defence opening statements as a matter of course, in this country, but I'm sure I've heard of it happening, so I wonder if that's something the defence will elect to do in this case.

The Chester Standard indicated that the defence would give an opening statement tomorrow.

3:43pm

The court is now adjourning for today.
Tomorrow (Thursday), the prosecution is expected to conclude its opening.
The defence is also expected to give its opening statement

Recap: Prosecution continues opening of Lucy Letby trial

The prosecution continues its opening in the trial of Lucy Letby, accused of multiple baby murders at the Countess of Chester Hospital.

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[mucbetam]

Yes this is what I was wondering too.

I find it especially twisted about her looking on Christmas Day, possibly to get a kick. A day that is meant to be a happy family day.

These comments remind me of Munchausen's by proxy

 

[kittythehare]

Lots of the initial news reports made mention of that. It was a comment made by the ex boyfriend of someone she knew.

If you google her and read all the various reports and look at her pictures she seems anything but socially awkward. Socially awkward people don't usually pose with stripper poles and chug cheap cocktails from direct from a 2 litre bucket.

yeah..
Just from today I was getting a super confident vibe from accounts of her..

But maybe when much younger..

 

[arrogantcat]

Lots of the initial news reports made mention of that. It was a comment made by the ex boyfriend of someone she knew.

If you google her and read all the various reports and look at her pictures she seems anything but socially awkward. Socially awkward people don't usually pose with stripper poles and chug cheap cocktails from direct from a 2 litre bucket.

Nonsense. Social awkwardness suggests a difficulty understanding the rules of social communication at times. I’d class myself as socially awkward, but I’m very outgoing!

 

[Bakers]

11:42am

The registrar was called to the unit at 3.23am. On arrival, he saw nurses giving Child I full CPR. The notes suggest he had to reposition the ETT.

A consultant doctor administered adrenaline, intubated and ventilated Child I.

An X-ray showed gross gaseous distention throughout the bowel and signs of chronic lung disease of prematurity (CLD).

Child I, the prosecution say, had the same problem that she had when Letby had fed her on September 30.

The medical team felt that the abdominal distention had affected her ability to expand the chest and in turn caused desaturation.

Both nursing and medical staff commented on a bruised like discolouration to the right of the sternum. They assumed this was the result of chest compressions.

The category of nursing care was raised a level.
"Ironically," the prosecution say, Letby was made the designated nurse, as she was more qualified.


11:43am

Medical notes showed the ETT had been "displaced" and, at 4.25am, the NGT was "curled in the oesophagus", which the prosecution say would have prevented release of the pressure created by excess air in the stomach.

Recap: Prosecution opens trial of Lucy Letby accused of Countess of Chester Hospital baby murders

THE trial of former Countess of Chester Hospital nurse Lucy Letby, who is accused of multiple baby murders, is due to finalise its jury and hear…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Although it doesn't serve to prove that she did any of this, the repeated statements of "I don't recall doing it" when asked why she searched patients family members is starting to have a very weird feel to it. If she'd replied "I don't know why I did it" I think that would sound slightly better if we take into account any potential autistic or similar conditions she may have. Repeatedly claiming not remembering doing it over multiple occasions and in relation to such serious cases sounds deeply strange though.

As I said, it proves nothing in the great scheme of things.

Don't you have to of sound mind to be charged with murder or if not can it be used as part of the defence .sorry again for the dumb Q x

 

[Marantz4250b]

Social awkwardness and introversion aren't necessarily the same thing.

This is true but socially awkward people tend to also be more reserved and less outgoing than others. The pictures of her in the various publications do not present the idea of someone who is particularly socially awkward, to me. The point being is that it's been tacitly used to imply that she's a bit isolated and not very outgoing. The physical evidence in her pictures tends to disprove that.

 

[Music2022]

I mean if I was to play devil's advocate when you compare a very recently bereaved parent vs a nurse, I would typically say it's the parent who is most likely to misremember something. There is also the possibility that she wrote the notes hours later and after a busy shift forgot the odd detail of who exactly said what and in which order.

I see your point. But the doctor also said the conversation with the parent didn’t happen.

 

[kittythehare]

Nonsense. Social awkwardness suggests a difficulty understanding the rules of social communication at times. I’d class myself as socially awkward, but I’m very outgoing!

Like putting your foot in it?
That makes sense though I hadn't considered it before.
If this was America we would see her police interviews.
I wonder how she handled herself in the course of those?

I have a feeling shee didn't lose her composure at all and I hope I'm wrong.