UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #3

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Hi. New user.

I’ve had cognitive behavioural therapy for anxiety. A huge part of the therapy involved almost exactly what you’ve said: noting down all of my terrible fears and what would happen if they came to fruition. It was part of an exercise I’d do daily when my anxiety was at its worst, and it’s something I still do occasionally now.

I still have all of those notes - some of them on scraps of paper - under my bed. If they were found, they would look very dark out of context.

Hello Newbie! Welcome

Yes I have also had CBT and was thinking similar - defining the thoughts you bring them to your therapist or you learn to process them that they are just thoughts and not the truth. For example one might write 'everyone hates me' and 'I have no friends because I'm fat' and the therapist would a) help you see that these are thoughts, not truths, and b) give tools to help more healthy thinking, feeling, behaviours. Ditto I felt this way about wanting to see an alive baby in the room where one had previously died - this is a simple technique to overcome negativity / phobia.

 

[Legally Bland]

2:27pm

Regarding the point of air embolus cases
The defence "accept it is a theoretical possibility", but that "does not establish very much".
The defence do not accept, for Child A, an air embolus was the cause, but one of "sub-optimal care", as a result of either "lack of fluids" or "various lines put into him, with potential to interfere with his heart rate".

Lucy Letby trial recap: Prosecution finishes outlining case, defence gives statement

THE prosecution in the trial of Lucy Letby, accused of murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Legally Bland]

2:28pm

"You will hear in this case, that the air present after death does not indicate an air embolus."
Mr Myers said air present in the abdomen "can happen post-mortem".

Lucy Letby trial recap: Prosecution finishes outlining case, defence gives statement

THE prosecution in the trial of Lucy Letby, accused of murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Officer Dibble]

I’m new, hope I can post this link about ‘caregivers who kill’ that I read earlier. The Czech woman hanged for ‘paedophobia’ irrational hatred of kids was interesting. Some of the details are macabre, just as a heads up…

KILLER NURSES: 20 Caregivers Who Murdered Their Patients

“I didn’t kill the babies; the voices in my head did.”

thoughtcatalog.com

omg puts you off going into hospital after reading all that.

 

[Legally Bland]

2:29pm

For Child B, the defence say she had been born in a "precarious condition" and there were no signs of diagnosing an "air embolus".
The defence say prosecution experts had been "influenced" into believing harm was done.
The defence say Child B had other episodes where she struggled to breathe, after the indictment.

Lucy Letby trial recap: Prosecution finishes outlining case, defence gives statement

THE prosecution in the trial of Lucy Letby, accused of murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Marantz4250b]

This case goes beyond duty solicitor though doesn't it?
I still can't see her parents shelling out, and I'm not sure they've got the means anyway.

I don't think they're wealthy but I don't think they're skint either. Just the impression I get.

 

[overthemoon]

The Sun is reporting she took the photos AFTER they were dead? Is that mentioned anywhere else? Was it without the parents' knowledge then if it was on her phone?

"She also took a photograph of two babies' bodies after she killed them, the court heard"

Nurse 'wrote "I'm evil, I killed them on purpose" after murdering 7 babies'

A NURSE accused of murdering seven babies handwrote a confession saying “I’m evil, I did this”, a court heard today. Lucy Letby, 32, allegedly wrote on a green Post-It note s…

www.thesun.co.uk

Now, this is indeed very DARK, if proven to be true.

Facebook stalking can be debatable. But this!

 

[Legally Bland]

2:34pm

For Child C, the defence say it is accepted that someone had injected air as a "theoretical possibility", but that is "a very long way from proving what has taken place".
Mr Myers said the jury would have to look at the practicalities of that, and consider alternative explanations.
Child C was "subject to a variety of complications" due to being born premature, the jury is told.
"We say, for a starting point, he should have been at a unit providing more specialist care."
The defence say pathology identified acute pneumonia in Child C.
The defence suggest a structural blockage could have caused distention.

Lucy Letby trial recap: Prosecution finishes outlining case, defence gives statement

THE prosecution in the trial of Lucy Letby, accused of murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

But to support a full hospital failing and not just an individual person failing, they’re going to need to show these similar type deaths on the watch of other clinicians. Because if they can’t, then it’s not a full hospital failing.

I assume the statistics are going to be analysed and challenged by the defence. One story could be that the hospital / ward was 'failing', did not have sufficient full time, regular, experienced, and continually employed nurses - maybe a lot of trainees, a lot of temps, and a high staff turnover say? Maybe some equipment that wasn't great. Maybe some checks that weren't being made properly. Everyone in a slight state of chaos and under pressure and maybe LL trying to pick up some slack - taking roles that weren't necessarily her's, working under duress and then all of a sudden it looks like she's *always* there every time a child goes into crisis? JMO MOO

 

[Kitaro]

I suspect this post will not be popular.

Because of the reports of doctors and the nurse so-called using Facebook (I am not sure if other social media accounts have been mentioned) I reflected about the data and confidentiality issues, but also whether or not it is appropriate to promote a culture in the workplace of using social media like Facebook for work related communications especially in a clini care context. don't get me wrong I can see the advantages..

I recognise that different organisations will have different cultures, and that there can be a blurring of lines.

But ultimately, I find it wholly inappropriate in the context of clinical care that Facebook is used for work comms. There may be no alternative, but there really should be and I imagine, is. Texting by work phone springs to mind.

Off record conversations on social media are not really off record. I therefore consulted the social media policy of what I guess is the relevant CCG. Link: https://www.cheshireccg.nhs.uk/media/2365/nhs-cheshire-ccg-social-media-policy-june-21.pdf

I was somewhat surprised about the lack of focus on colleague to colleague communications but it is defined under IM and therefore is in scope of the policy.

However only one line is particularly relevant - although it is perhaps not written for the context of what we are sleuthing here.

Note 7.2 which relates to only use your work profile for work related activities and not your personal one. However the policy also leans on allowing for staff discretion in social media's use from the outset, and that effectively covers staff's back by and large in my estimation.

It sounds strict, but I believe the policy lacks robustness, and should be clearer on care related communications and also that professional care communications should not be occurring on this way. Let's face it one minute you could be talking about confidential information about a patient, which could be identifiable even if names not used.

The next you're flirting about Saturday night.

One minute your inviting you colleagues to contact you by Facebook about work because "it's the best way to reach me", the next your providing an outlet to an alleged murderer.

That's if you don't keep a separate work and personal profile. But I doubt this is followed.

I think they need to clarify that they mean Facebook Messenger as an instant communication tool here.

 

[Legally Bland]

2:36pm

For Child D, the defence say the hospital "failed to provide appropriate care", and this was "beyond dispute" as the prosecution accepted care was sub-optimal.
Child D "was never able to breathe unaided" and there was a "strong" possibility of infection, and evidence of pneumonia after death.

Lucy Letby trial recap: Prosecution finishes outlining case, defence gives statement

THE prosecution in the trial of Lucy Letby, accused of murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Supernovae]

Regarding the photos the Sky live blog describes it as follows:

After Child P died, she spent time with his parents and at one point took a photograph of them both together in a cot.

That doesn't make it clear whether it was done with or without the parents knowledge.

 

[Legally Bland]

2:38pm

For Child E, the defence say there is "no evidence of an air embolus", or of "direct trauma" that led to blood loss.
There was "no clear explanation" on the cause of death, but that was not a presumption of guilt.
The defence say the absence of a post-mortem meant the prosecution could "float suggestions of deliberate harm".

Lucy Letby trial recap: Prosecution finishes outlining case, defence gives statement

THE prosecution in the trial of Lucy Letby, accused of murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[Rusty Braincells]

But to support a full hospital failing and not just an individual person failing, they’re going to need to show these similar type deaths on the watch of other clinicians. Because if they can’t, then it’s not a full hospital failing.As ab aside, mother received treatment in this hospital and while the nurses certainly cared, various mistakes were made in her care. I pointed out that she had the wrong notes at the end of her bed for example, which belonged to the patient directly opposite (!), who sadly died during one of our visits to my mum. The hospital has also not had great results at its inspections in recent years.

As an aside, my mother received treatment in this hospital towards the end of her life and while most of the nurses certainly evidently cared, various mistakes were made in her care. I pointed out that she had the wrong notes at the end of her bed for example, which belonged to the patient directly opposite (!), who was twenty years older and very poorly and sadly died during one of our visits to my mum. The hospital has also not had great results at its inspections in recent years.

Of course, my anecdote is not connected to the treatment of newborn babies but I’m sure the defence will raise the issues at the hospital which are borne out by the inspection reports. However, as you say, it will be notable if certain less than perfect practices haven’t resulted in similar levels of deaths in this unit for other nurses or teams or at units with similar issues.

 

[Kitaro]

From everything I've read, the defence have their work cut out here. Everything they have said sounds quite wishy-washy challenges to the details and mic drop ending of the prosecution opening.

 

[kittythehare]

Hello Newbie! Welcome

Yes I have also had CBT and was thinking similar - defining the thoughts you bring them to your therapist or you learn to process them that they are just thoughts and not the truth. For example one might write 'everyone hates me' and 'I have no friends because I'm fat' and the therapist would a) help you see that these are thoughts, not truths, and b) give tools to help more healthy thinking, feeling, behaviours. Ditto I felt this way about wanting to see an alive baby in the room where one had previously died - this is a simple technique to overcome negativity / phobia.

To see an alive baby in a particular bed in contravention of an order and to abandon an ill child one was tasked to care for the joy that might bring suggests a range of adjectives, none remotely akin to the subject under discussion, I would think?

 

[Tortoise]

Yes, absolutely.
Being in court on jury duty brings another level to the cases. In my case, we handled bagged evidence while in court, physical items, at this point, with the overwhelming evidence and proof, there was no doubt that the person was guilty, which he was found so at the end.
I would say that the jury at this point are already struggling given the information provided to them, photographs and written confessions EDIT: - a lot of discussion goes on at lunch time between all the jury, you're allocated a special room where you all sit together to discuss and eat lunch.

The jury members are not allowed to discuss any part of the case until they are sent out to deliberate.

 

[SOMETHINGWILLDO]

The jury members are not allowed to discuss any part of the case until they are sent out to deliberate.

May not, but i can guarantee you that was the case, especially with such a shocking case.

 

[Marantz4250b]

Does anyone know what support jurors get? I assume their every need is catered to and they get psychological support and wellbeing help? Are they living in a hotel or do they return home every day? Are there any other precedents for a case of this type? Maybe Beverly Allit? What happened with her jury?

They'll be going home each day. As far as I'm aware it's exceptionally rare for a jury to be isolated in this country. I think it's only done where there is serious risk of them being "got at" on behalf of the accused, like serious threats of violence or intimidation. Possibly where there is state security information involved?

 

[Legally Bland]

2:43pm

For Child F and Child L, the children allegedly poisoned with insulin, the defence "cannot say what has happened".
"It is difficult to say if you don't know," Mr Myers said.
"So much has been said about these. These are not simple allegations which can automatically lead to a conviction."
The defence say Child E's TPN bag was put up by Letby in August 2015 and hours later there were blood sugar problems. That bag was replaced, in the absence of Letby, but the problems continued.
The sample taken came from "the second bag", the defence say.
A professor had given "three possible explanations", none of which identified Letby as a culprit.
For Child L, there were issues with the documentation provided, so those are challenged, the defence say.
There is "nothing to say" Letby was directly involved in the acts.

Lucy Letby trial recap: Prosecution finishes outlining case, defence gives statement

THE prosecution in the trial of Lucy Letby, accused of murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk