UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #5

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LIVE: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, November 3

12:31pm

Child D was administered with an endotracheal tube on the second attempt.
The nursing notes record Child D was 'starting to out a few breaths in for herself now'.

12:33pm

An x-ray reading for Child D showed 'shadowing consistent with transient tachypnoea of the newborn [TTN, a respiratory disorder]'.

12:34pm

A nurse's note recorded meeting the father, who had visited the neonatal unit, and it was explained to him that Child D would be on the neonatal unit for "at least 48 hours", and the dad was "visibly upset", so "lots of reassurance" was given to him.
 
Absolutely nothing to suggest a lack of empathy aside from the reports of suspicious parents. I would sooner believe her fellow nurses to have noticed something like that and I don’t believe they would be biased in this situation. The instance of LL asking to put the baby in the ventilated basket seems to be part of the palliative care the baby was receiving and obviously if the parents were waiting for the poor baby to stop showing any signs of life to put the baby “he’s not dead yet” in the basket the basket isn’t needed beyond that point. I’m not even sure that what was reported was true, did LL offer to take the baby away? That would be an example of a lack of empathy.
 
Sweeper2000 said:
Absolutely nothing to suggest a lack of empathy aside from the reports of suspicious parents. I would sooner believe her fellow nurses to have noticed something like that and I don’t believe they would be biased in this situation. The instance of LL asking to put the baby in the ventilated basket seems to be part of the palliative care the baby was receiving and obviously if the parents were waiting for the poor baby to stop showing any signs of life to put the baby “he’s not dead yet” in the basket the basket isn’t needed beyond that point. I’m not even sure that what was reported was true, did LL offer to take the baby away? That would be an example of a lack of empathy.
Click to expand...
The patient's opinion is the most important thing in nursing! You're there to provide treatment and support for them, and for new born babies it's the parents. It's like a brand saying, who cares what the customer thinks, as long as we rate ourselves highly internally. If you're a nurse with a high number of adverse outcomes in a short period, and the parents have nothing positive to say about your interaction - what exactly are you doing well in your job? Does it matter at all that your fellow nurses like you?

None of these recollections of interactions with LL are positive. Look at the wording used. In each case it either shocked them, or irritated them or upset them. Anyone in a role facing patients, customers, clients needs to put their needs first and do what's best for them.
 
@Sweeper2000 Read The Code online

This might be a useful read. It's the Nursing and Midwives code of conduct. You'll notice the first section is devoted to prioritising people. Here's the introduction.

"You put the interests of people using or needing nursing or midwifery services first. You make their care and safety your main concern and make sure that their dignity is preserved and their needs are recognised, assessed and responded to. You make sure that those receiving care are treated with respect, that their rights are upheld and that any discriminatory attitudes and behaviours towards those receiving care are challenged. "
 
12:10pm

The first evidence shown to the court is Lucy Letby's shift patterns for June 2015.
It shows which days Letby was on 'long day' shifts, and 'night' shifts.
She worked long day shifts on June 2, 4, 17, 19, 27 and 28.
She worked night shifts on June 8, 9, 13, 14, 21, 22 and 23.
Child A died on the night of June 8-9, and Child B had a non-fatal collapse on June 9-10.
Child C died on the night of June 13-14.
Child D died on the night of June 21-22.

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, November 3

The trial of Lucy Letby, who denies murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to murder 10 more,…
www.chesterstandard.co.uk www.chesterstandard.co.uk
 
merrypason said:
The patient's opinion is the most important thing in nursing! You're there to provide treatment and support for them, and for new born babies it's the parents. It's like a brand saying, who cares what the customer thinks, as long as we rate ourselves highly internally. If you're a nurse with a high number of adverse outcomes in a short period, and the parents have nothing positive to say about your interaction - what exactly are you doing well in your job? Does it matter at all that your fellow nurses like you?

None of these recollections of interactions with LL are positive. Look at the wording used. In each case it either shocked them, or irritated them or upset them. Anyone in a role facing patients, customers, clients needs to put their needs first and do what's best for them.
Click to expand...
If I was going to plays devils advocate, I'd be interested to know if their opinions on the care they were given was gathered before or after they found out she might have killed/attempted to kill their child. Were there any complaints made at the time etc.
 
LIVE: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, November 3

12:53pm

A note from nurse Kate Bissell reads, at 9am on June 21, that Child D was 'extubated...following satisfactory blood gas'.
Child D was 'initially apnoeic and required stimulation...via Neopuff/CPAP', but the breathing became more regular after a couple of minutes.
Kate Bissell, in a subsequent nursing note, said a blood gas reading at 10.15am was subseqently taken and the results showed signs of respiratory acidosis, so Child D was put back on CPAP.
The blood gas was repeated two hours later and 'showed further deterioration with increasing metabolic acidosis'. Child D's perfusion was 'poor' and a doctor approved a decision to administer medication.
Dr Ahmed Chowdhury recorded a UVC and a UAC were inserted
 
merrypason said:
The patient's opinion is the most important thing in nursing! You're there to provide treatment and support for them, and for new born babies it's the parents. It's like a brand saying, who cares what the customer thinks, as long as we rate ourselves highly internally. If you're a nurse with a high number of adverse outcomes in a short period, and the parents have nothing positive to say about your interaction - what exactly are you doing well in your job? Does it matter at all that your fellow nurses like you?

None of these recollections of interactions with LL are positive. Look at the wording used. In each case it either shocked them, or irritated them or upset them. Anyone in a role facing patients, customers, clients needs to put their needs first and do what's best for them.
Click to expand...

Considering the circumstances I wouldn’t have assumed any of the parents would come away from that hospital with a positive recollection of events especially now as someone is being charged with murder. I also wouldn’t assume that any woman giving birth is in a particularly positive frame of mind, more like agony and intense discomfort. I also might not think that baby d’s parents were happy with anything but the support the father received.

I also didn’t state that other nurses liking someone would be what I used to ascertain the suitability of that person for a job. I would trust in at least some of the other nurses to give a honest and professional account of LL as a nurse and that seems to come back positive. I also believe it is not patients that have the whipping hand otherwise everyone would be getting fired left right and centre but that is not the case in retail because the customer generally does have the whipping hand.
 
Stumpyaura said:
LIVE: Lucy Letby trial, Thursday, November 3

12:10pm

The first evidence shown to the court is Lucy Letby's shift patterns for June 2015.
It shows which days Letby was on 'long day' shifts, and 'night' shifts.
She worked long day shifts on June 2, 4, 17, 19, 27 and 28.
She worked night shifts on June 8, 9, 13, 14, 21, 22 and 23.
Child A died on the night of June 8-9, and Child B had a non-fatal collapse on June 9-10.
Child C died on the night of June 13-14.
Child D died on the night of June 21-22.
Click to expand...
When you look at this if LL did this it was like an obsession.

Also to not there are no additional shifts for June ...that is a normal number of shifts for a full time nurse
 
Sweeper2000 said:
In terms of the texts LL has sent around there isn’t anything particularly suspicious there. She isn’t demanding attention or saying she deserves it, it’s more “we” rather than “I”. She doesn’t seem to feel particularly sorry for herself and persistently which would be more in line with an attention seeker. She also does not make herself centre piece which again would be in line. The words “I just don’t feel there is much team spirit tonight” isn’t a particularly strong or emphasised way of getting what she is supposed to want. The fact that she mentions “it’s just I don’t feel” sounds more to me that she is inwardly accepting that yes it is just her feelings that are a potential problem here and they are what they are, not necessarily significant but not necessarily to be ignored either. If she had of stated “I don’t feel there is much team spirit tonight” it’s a much more direct and self centred way of stating what she believes to be a problem and without the “I just” there isn’t any acknowledgement that it is just her feelings alone. Which suggests she isn’t just thinking of herself. If we were to assume it was attention seeking or thrill seeking you would be able to interpret that in her words and interactions, there is nothing to suggest that seemingly at all.
Click to expand...

<modsnip - LL has not be diagnosed with any specific mental health issue>

When she said "I just don't feel there is much team spirit tonight", she could be meaning that she doesn't feel she is getting the attention or support from her colleagues that she feels she deserves. Almost placing an element of blame on others without obviously doing so. I guess it depends how you want to interpret it and maybe I am reading too much into it in a cynical way, but I don't think you can say for sure that she is not being self-centered with that comment.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Elgana said:
<modsnip - LL has not been diagnosed with any mental health issue>

When she said "I just don't feel there is much team spirit tonight", she could be meaning that she doesn't feel she is getting the attention or support from her colleagues that she feels she deserves. I guess it depends how you want to interpret it and maybe I am reading too much into it in a cynical way, but I don't think you can say for sure that she is not being self-centered with that comment.
Click to expand...

I agree these messages are over the top imo
At best they show someone over invested at worst someone revelling in Drama and wanting attention
 
Last edited by a moderator:
merrypason said:
@Sweeper2000 Read The Code online

This might be a useful read. It's the Nursing and Midwives code of conduct. You'll notice the first section is devoted to prioritising people. Here's the introduction.

"You put the interests of people using or needing nursing or midwifery services first. You make their care and safety your main concern and make sure that their dignity is preserved and their needs are recognised, assessed and responded to. You make sure that those receiving care are treated with respect, that their rights are upheld and that any discriminatory attitudes and behaviours towards those receiving care are challenged. "
Click to expand...

My point is that in the instances given there isn’t anything but the opinions of the parents that state these are instances that go against those guidelines. They seem more to be instances of very minor agrievances or examples of everyday happenings. Would LL have had a disciplinary for any of them? I very much doubt it.
 
Sweeper2000 said:
Considering the circumstances I wouldn’t have assumed any of the parents would come away from that hospital with a positive recollection of events especially now as someone is being charged with murder. I also wouldn’t assume that any woman giving birth is in a particularly positive frame of mind, more like agony and intense discomfort. I also might not think that baby d’s parents were happy with anything but the support the father received.

I also didn’t state that other nurses liking someone would be what I used to ascertain the suitability of that person for a job. I would trust in at least some of the other nurses to give a honest and professional account of LL as a nurse and that seems to come back positive. I also believe it is not patients that have the whipping hand otherwise everyone would be getting fired left right and centre but that is not the case in retail because the customer generally does have the whipping hand.
Click to expand...
Well the parents of child A and B did compliment another nurse for being very supportive, so they did have some positive interactions. Parents of child D did say how one doctor did re-assure them and make them feel better. Likewise they commented on the other doctor who was careless and not comforting. So it's not like they've just thrown LL under the bus.

This isn't just 1-2 parents, it's more like 10 parents who all have very specific recollections. Even if they had a negative experience, they aren't just saying something vague like, "oh i knew she was a bad one". They have given specific examples of what exactly she did that upset them. And it's a different type of example in each. I cannot believe every single parent decided to come up with something different. That's accepting they're all so callous and immoral they'd lie under oath to put an innocent woman in prison, just because they're angry. How can we believe that all these parents are capable of something like this, but not one nurse?

Most people don't make complaints to the NHS because it is pretty cumbersome, especially for parents who've just lost their children. People struggle to even make complaints to restaurants when their food is of poor quality! Doesn't mean if you asked them a year later whether they liked the restaurant, and they say, "No, was a horrible experience", they're lying.

Also I haven't seen any positive feedback on LL's performance other than one nurse, who is a friend from uni, who said she was professional. We do however have feedback from her supervisor on how she was not following instructions and the texts/medical notes back this up.
 
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Sweeper2000 said:
My point is that in the instances given there isn’t anything but the opinions of the parents that state these are instances that go against those guidelines. They seem more to be instances of very minor agrievances or examples of everyday happenings. Would LL have had a disciplinary for any of them? I very much doubt it.
Click to expand...
If the parents had complained, yes she would have been reviewed. If parents had known she was checking them up on social media as regularly and complained, she would have been reviewed. If parents had complained she had taken home medical notes without their consent, she'd have been reviewed.

All of these things were ignored because the parents did not make complaints. But then neither did Beverley Ailitt or Harold Shipman's patients. Lack of complaints means nothing when they are saying under oath how she made them feel. And if the options are to believe 10 victims, vs one person on trial - I would believe the victims. They have nothing to gain from this - they can still take a claim against the hospital regardless of whether she is found guilty or not, and I can't imagine going to court and going through the trauma of a trial and hearing all the gory details of your child's death is enticing enough to lie.
 
Perhaps completely innocent, and nothing untoward at all; but there seems to be one or two direct mentions towards “meeting the father” and reassurance provided to him. Which is absolutely lovely too of course; but I would have expected some mention of interaction with the mum, how she was feeling/ doing given the circumstances of the birth, interaction, reassuring mum etc. Doesn’t appear to be a lot mentioned here about mum in the notes which you would typically assume
 
Sundial said:
Perhaps completely innocent, and nothing untoward at all; but there seems to be one or two direct mentions towards “meeting the father” and reassurance provided to him. Which is absolutely lovely too of course; but I would have expected some mention of interaction with the mum, how she was feeling/ doing given the circumstances of the birth, interaction, reassuring mum etc. Doesn’t appear to be a lot mentioned here about mum in the notes which you would typically assume
Click to expand...
I wonder if it's something as mundane as that the mothers would have recently have given birth or had a c-section (particularly the latter which is quite significant surgery) so would be recovering elsewhere in the hospital with the father likely to be with the baby more.

JMO.
 
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