UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #9

[Tortoise]

I'm just speaking from the point of view of losing more jurors. This case is now taking even longer, isn't even half way through and four out of fourteen jurors have gone - although, granted, the two this week may resume.

As I said, the two being discharged at the end of opening speeches is standard for our courts, cases always sit with a jury of 12 (at the start of evidence).

 

[Kemug]

Oh yes I didn't really consider that, if the parents of Baby G are coming to court they may be away from their baby for a considerable stretch of time, to sit and hear these details. All the parents have been so brave, I hope they get justice.

Yes indeed, and I still believe they will. And of course all the parents have been geared up for a long, long trial, and to hear lots of harrowing details. Also I hope they feel free to miss the occasional day if they need a little break, no-one could blame them.

 

[Tortoise]

I think there's zero chance the trial would be abandoned at this stage, even if these jurors can't return. That's the reason juries can lose numbers and still reach a verdict. I'm picking up that they expect these jurors back and they have "very good reasons", which means the court knows what they are and it's temporary. They are using the time to plan ahead and reduce the outstanding legal issues. IMO

 

[Parker Knoll]

This is not a great situation to be in at the start of the year, very dangerous territory.
I also fear a re trial.

 

[LadyEdgeworth]

I think there's zero chance the trial would be abandoned at this stage, even if these jurors can't return. That's the reason juries can lose numbers and still reach a verdict. I'm picking up that they expect these jurors back and they have "very good reasons", which means the court knows what they are and it's temporary. They are using the time to plan ahead and reduce the outstanding legal issues. IMO

Yes I get the feeling it may be something like bereavement/family issues as the Judge did seem to expect the issues to be resolved at some point and they are 'good reasons' not just a cough lol. I do think we will be back as he told the jurors not to book holidays etc. If I was on the jury I'd definitely be off for a two week all inclusive after 7-8 months of this trial.

MOO

 

[NeverPersonal]

I feel so bad for the families...this is dragging out so long.

Baby G has severe medical issues. This trial has been 'stuck' on Baby G for 6 weeks already....this must be devastating for the parents. They already have so much to deal with everyday, besides the horror of the trial.

i wonder what the extent of baby g's brain damage is. this is truly heartbreaking to read about, cannot imagine the parents' horror, or the jurors' for that matter.

 

[ColourPurple]

This is not a great situation to be in at the start of the year, very dangerous territory.
I also fear a re trial.

I can't see why there would be a retrial when it's just a case of a couple of jurors being temporarily absent. It may well just be something like covid. Sure it's a shame that they can't have a bigger pool of jurors in long cases, especially during Covid times, but I'm not sure where the conspiracy theories about "something not being right" about the trial and a possible retrial being on the cards,are coming from.

 

[ColourPurple]

i wonder what the extent of baby g's brain damage is. this is truly heartbreaking to read about, cannot imagine the parents' horror, or the jurors' for that matter.

There was some info about Baby G (who must be around 7 now) needing 24 hour care and doctors not being sure of her life expectancy.

 

[Parker Knoll]

I am not suggesting the temporary absence could cause a collapse but at present we still have around 5 months to go, they simply can’t have any more losses with the jurors going forward.
I am not a conspiracy theorist only someone who has had 20+ years within the legal system. This case IS strange and I have seen plenty.

 

[Sweeper2000]

baby G

“Medics managed to save her life but the incident on September 7, 2015 - her 100th day - left her so severely brain damaged that seven years later she is a paraplegic with cerebral palsy.”

Nurse Lucy Letby 'made two more attempts to murder baby girl'

Nurse Lucy Letby made two further attempts to murder a baby after the infant survived an attack with a syringe to force milk and air into her body, Manchester Crown Court heard today.

www.dailymail.co.uk

She had vomited violently and was bleeding from the throat before suffering a collapse.
Doctors were called and the baby was moved to intensive care where she was resuscitated.
It is alleged Ms Letby had over-fed Child G.
The jury has previously been told the baby survived but suffered irreversible brain damage and has multiple disabilities including quadriplegic cerebral palsy.
In a statement read to the court, Child G's mother described an occasion when Ms Letby had told her that she needed to take her daughter's blood readings.
She said: "She said 'wait in the parents' room' which was not unusual, because nurses often say 'go out and come back later'. So I went for a coffee but something pinched me, and so I went back early.
"[Child G] was freaking out and screaming. She looked so puzzled
Lucy Letby denies all the charges
"Lucy was with another member of staff trying to calm her down, they let me hold her in the end because that's what calmed her down - cuddles".
In a separate statement, Child G's father said he "never saw anything" that caused any concerns about any of the nurses or doctors.
He also said in his statement that his daughter was given a 5% chance of survival upon her birth, and was so tiny she was no bigger than his hand.
The day after Child G's collapse, the court was told that at 16:25 BST Ms Letby texted a former nursing colleague, who cannot be named for legal reasons.
She asked: "How are parents?"
The colleague replied: "Devastated but determined she'll get through as always. Thought that if she got to 100 then they would feel confident she'd be fine."
Ms Letby responded: "Awful isn't it. We'd all been sat at desk at start of the shift making banner."
The other nurse replied: "Yup. Mary brought her cake in."
An hour later, Ms Letby asked: "Any idea what's caused it."
The nurse replied: "Nope. Just seems to be a [circulatory] collapse. Chest seems clear".
Ms Letby replied: "Hmmm. What can cause that? Is it that she's been an extreme prem who had long term inotrope and vent dependency and now she's older and doing more for herself and it just takes a little bug or something to tip her over as no reserves and chronic lung etc."
The nurse replied: "We are going with sepsis, and yes to no reserves, she looks grim".
Ms Letby denies murdering seven babies and attempting to murder 10 others.
A court order bans the reporting of the identities of the children allegedly attacked by Ms Letby, while identifying parents or some witnesses is also.

Lucy Letby: Nurse made celebration banner for baby before alleged attack

Nurse Lucy Letby is accused of murdering seven babies and attempting to murder 10 others.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Tortoise]

As I said, the two being discharged at the end of opening speeches is standard for our courts, cases always sit with a jury of 12 (at the start of evidence).

Just found the relevant law on this

Discharging jurors​

25.7.—
(1) The court may exercise its power to discharge a juror at any time—

(a)after the juror completes the oath or affirmation; and

(b)before the court discharges the jury.

(2) No later than the beginning of the prosecution evidence, if the jury then comprises more than 12 jurors the court must discharge any in excess of 12 in reverse order of their selection from the panel.

The Criminal Procedure Rules 2020

No jurors have been 'lost' to date, as some seem to think.

 

[Tortoise]

I think they to continue give evidence in the case of Child G, a baby girl.
The prosecution say she was force-fed milk, allegedly by Letby. She did not die but LL has been charged with attempted murder.

from previous testimony before the break:

Medical expert Dr. Dewi Evans, who was brought in by the National Crime Agency to review the case, testified it was “astonishing” for such a small child to vomit so severely.

“For a baby of 2kg [4.4 pounds] to vomit that far is quite remarkable. Even more astonishing is the vomit that ends up on the chair. That is several feet away,” he told the court.

“I can’t recall a baby vomiting on the floor. I can’t recall a baby vomiting that distance. It was described quite correctly as extraordinary.”

The baby’s health rapidly declined in the wake of the vomiting — and she had to be intubated and placed on a ventilator.
Evans said the only explanation was that Child G “had received far more milk” than the approved 45mls [1.5 ounces] in her feeding tube, adding that it “cannot occur accidentally.”

The baby survived but was left with irreversible brain damage in the wake of the ordeal, the court heard.

Accused killer nurse Lucy Letby allegedly force-fed baby ‘massive’ amounts of milk

Accused serial killer nurse Lucy Letby allegedly tried to kill a premature baby girl by force-feeding her “massive” amounts of milk through a nasal tube, a UK court has heard.

nypost.com

Yes, I don't think the experts have given evidence yet for the two allegations of attempted murder of baby G on 21st Sep 2015.

 

[Tortoise]

I never heard of this before

Rule 25.6
(5) If too few jurors to constitute a jury are available from the panel after all their names have been drawn, the court may—

(a)exercise its own power to summon others in the court room, or in the vicinity, up to the number required;
The Criminal Procedure Rules 2020
--

You could be walking past a court or sitting in the public gallery and be summoned by the judge!

 

[DianaWW]

I thought one juror has been lost, although it may be the wording that's confused me!

3:34pm

That concludes the defence outline case.
It is also the end that the jury sits as 14 members, as one juror has indicated they can no longer serve on the jury. The reserve juror has taken their place.
The second reserve juror has also been discharged.
The jury will now sit as 12.

Lucy Letby trial recap: Prosecution finishes outlining case, defence gives statement

THE prosecution in the trial of Lucy Letby, accused of murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

 

[LadyEdgeworth]

I thought one juror has been lost, although it may be the wording that's confused me!

3:34pm

That concludes the defence outline case.
It is also the end that the jury sits as 14 members, as one juror has indicated they can no longer serve on the jury. The reserve juror has taken their place.
The second reserve juror has also been discharged.
The jury will now sit as 12.

Lucy Letby trial recap: Prosecution finishes outlining case, defence gives statement

THE prosecution in the trial of Lucy Letby, accused of murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

So we started with 14, which is typical for cases they expect to last more than 4 weeks, you sit as 14 right up until the point that the prosecution is about to begin their case.

If at this point the 12 actual members of the jury are fine to continue, the two that were called up last will be dismissed and it proceeds as 12. In this case, one of the original 12 couldn't serve so one of the extras took their spot and the other extra was not required and was dismissed as expected.

Does that make sense or have I complicated it further lol

 

[DianaWW]

So we started with 14, which is typical for cases they expect to last more than 4 weeks, you sit as 14 right up until the point that the prosecution is about to begin their case.

If at this point the 12 actual members of the jury are fine to continue, the two that were called up last will be dismissed and it proceeds as 12. In this case, one of the original 12 couldn't serve so one of the extras took their spot and the other extra was not required and was dismissed as expected.

Does that make sense or have I complicated it further lol

Haha not at all, that was how I understood it too!

 

[Tortoise]

"The purpose of swearing in ‘alternate jurors’ is to allow for the discharge of jurors up until the point that the prosecution call evidence.

This means that if a juror, during the prosecution opening, discovers that there is a reason why they cannot serve, perhaps because they know someone involved in the case, they can be replaced without the entire jury having to be discharged."

How Many Jurors Are There In a Jury? | Mortons Solicitors

 

[Tortoise]

I thought one juror has been lost, although it may be the wording that's confused me!

3:34pm

That concludes the defence outline case.
It is also the end that the jury sits as 14 members, as one juror has indicated they can no longer serve on the jury. The reserve juror has taken their place.
The second reserve juror has also been discharged.
The jury will now sit as 12.

Lucy Letby trial recap: Prosecution finishes outlining case, defence gives statement

THE prosecution in the trial of Lucy Letby, accused of murdering seven babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital neonatal unit and attempting to…

www.chesterstandard.co.uk

Perhaps I should have clarified, looking at it from the point of view of when the case evidence started. It never would have proceeded with 14.

 

[ColourPurple]

I am not suggesting the temporary absence could cause a collapse but at present we still have around 5 months to go, they simply can’t have any more losses with the jurors going forward.
I am not a conspiracy theorist only someone who has had 20+ years within the legal system. This case IS strange and I have seen plenty.

Strange how though?

 

[ColourPurple]

Just my thoughts in general...I've read the first thread now, as I wasn't around back then and I can see that right from the start, when the only information available was pics of LL and the fact that she was being questioned about the babies' deaths, some were absolutely adamant that LL just could not be capable of murdering babies, saying things "This girl is not a baby killer, She just isn't" "She doesn't fit the profile" "I'm a good judge of character" "She looks too [insert "normal" "nice" "prettty" "caring"]. Reading it now that certainty really intigues me because nobody knew anything about LL or the evidence at that point. Yet some could not even accept the idea that she could be guilty. Like there was some kind of emotional connection or core belief that would not allow them to even consider the option that she may be responsible for murdering babies.

And even now, when we're hearing the evidence we're seeing theories that would involve every single medical expert who concluded that babies were intentionally harmed, being either biased or unable to use critical thinking. Rather than considering the possibility that the babies were intentionally harmed and that LL could allegedly be the one who harmed them. I get the feeling that even if she is found guilty, some will just not allow themselves to believe it. I don't think I've ever seen this first hand before, or at least not on this scale. Yes everybody is innocent till proven guilty and it's the prosecution's job to try to prove that LL is guilty, and it's the defences job to raise things like whether there could be confirmation bias etc. But to even consider whether somebody is guilty or not you have to be open to the possibility that they might be. And yes, I know that it doesn't really matter what a load of people think on the internet as the jury will make their decision regardless.

All JMO