UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #9

[Dotta]

No news yet?

Well, the word "HATE" in her note struck me - not surpisingly, as it is in capital letters, in different (black, hmmm) colour and to top it all - circled.

Ppl consumed by hatred usually plot "revenge" scenarios in their heads (school shooters, mass killers).
Their outlook is almost always negative (her texts with: "rubbish", "burnt out", "horrible", etc.)

She was young, with prestigious job and yet...
My picture of her is of a person dissatisfied, anxious and lacking joy of life (judging the texts and a note).

JMO

 

[Tortoise]

I also think the words on purpose could be present for three different reason, could be she has entertained the idea the deaths were through malpractice or not being good enough at her job and that’s what she is accused of, a clarification that she killed them deliberately to a perceived outer Audience

people generally don’t apologise if they feel they have done nothing wrong.

Your earlier post suggests you think she said she killed them on purpose because she made mistakes. I would expect her to feel sorry about that, wracked with guilt, more than if she intended to kill them.

 

[Tortoise]

No news yet Dotta.

I'm hoping we'll get one or two decent write-ups when court finishes today.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Your earlier post suggests you think she said she killed them on purpose because she made mistakes. I would expect her to feel sorry about that, wracked with guilt, more than if she intended to kill them.

Not exactly. that was one of the possible explanations for the presence of the words “on purpose“ which is superfluous to a straight forward acknowledgement of having committed murder. Assuming she is innocent it fits with her defence stating

“Ben Myers, defending Letby, told the court she was ‘adamant she’s done nothing intentionally to harm these babies”

Lucy Letby 'says it was just a coincidence that she was at death of every baby'

The defence told jurors: ‘It is important to be careful that blame is not heaped on that woman when there may be others who have made mistakes or a system which has failed.'

metro.co.uk

suggests she has thought she may have made mistakes In practice. One of the possible explanations for her saying “I haven’t done anything wrong” and at that point she may have been unaware of any personal culpability in the events and thus no need to feel guilty or apologetic.

 

[Tortoise]

Not exactly. that was one of the possible explanations for the presence of the words “on purpose“ which is superfluous to a straight forward acknowledgement of having committed murder. Assuming she is innocent it fits with her defence stating

“Ben Myers, defending Letby, told the court she was ‘adamant she’s done nothing intentionally to harm these babies”

Lucy Letby 'says it was just a coincidence that she was at death of every baby'

The defence told jurors: ‘It is important to be careful that blame is not heaped on that woman when there may be others who have made mistakes or a system which has failed.'

metro.co.uk

suggests she has thought she may have made mistakes In practice. One of the possible explanations for her saying “I haven’t done anything wrong” and at that point she may have been unaware of any personal culpability in the events and thus no need to feel guilty or apologetic.

So where does 'I am evil I did this' come into her lack of awareness of personal culpability in the events?

 

[Blondiexoxo]

It isn’t uncommon for a narcissist to show self pitying behaviour, a narcissist can be particularly sensitive to criticism whether it’s constructive or direct criticism of their work. This is ‘covert narcissism’ where the typical trait of self importance isn’t as obvious.

A covert narcissist is extremely insecure and sensitive. They come across as introverted and shy, quiet and soft spoken. They are still self absorbed and believe they are more important than others but the grandiosity just isn’t as obvious as with an overt narcissist because they put themselves down to others while trying to fish for compliments.

Interestingly, jealousy is a hallmark trait of this type of narcissism, envy of others aswell as depression and anxiety which can be seen by others as shyness. They still think the world revolves around them, but will say things like ‘everyone’s talking about me because they think I’m bad at my job’, when they want to hear things like ‘don’t put yourself down, you are amazing at your job, we are all so proud of you’. IMO, a covert narcissist would be very likely to write that self loathing note when things aren’t going their way and the people they’re so used to manipulating are starting to see through the mask.

It’s still all ME ME ME, everyone hates ME, I am evil, I am not good enough, I don’t deserve my family etc… still self absorbed and thinking the world revolves around ME. Feeling sorry for themselves rather than the real victims. In other words ‘playing the victim’.

ETA- Of course, narcs are very manipulative and every now and then will throw in phrases like ‘how awful, I feel so sorry for them’ - because that’s what the typical person would say in such circumstances. They are clever and know what behaviours and words are expected in certain situations, but just because they say it doesn’t mean they feel it. IMO

(Just my thoughts on narcissism, not saying this applies to LL) ALL MOO

 

[Blondiexoxo]

So where does 'I am evil I did this' come into her lack of awareness of personal culpability in the events?

Self pity because poor me everyone’s talking about me, I’m the only important topic of conversation my colleagues are having. I’m so important I’m on everyone’s mind because I’m evil. IMO

ETA - I don’t think it shows lack of awareness though, quite the opposite imo!

 

[Sweeper2000]

So where does 'I am evil I did this' come into her lack of awareness of personal culpability in the events?

She could have been speaking hypothetically. Fits with the non direct word “this” rather than “it” which would be A direct reference to an allegation of wrongdoing. I just don’t think the word “this” would Be used to describe whatever it is she has been accused of. it’s singular and inadequate to describe multiple allegations. She could be referring to each event together as one but I doubt it. I’m kind of picturing her picturing herself in front of a court going “I did this” which only then would be a direct reference to any allegations. Fitting with her understanding of the possible consequences of police involvement. Still dramatic.

Do you think it implies she doesn’t know exactly what she is accused of?

 

[Blondiexoxo]

She could have been speaking hypothetically. Fits with the non direct word “this” rather than “it” which would be A direct reference to an allegation of wrongdoing. I just don’t think the word “this” would Be used to describe whatever it is she has been accused of. it’s singular and inadequate to describe multiple allegations. She could be referring to each event together as one but I doubt it. I’m kind of picturing her picturing herself in front of a court going “I did this” which only then would be a direct reference to any allegations. Fitting with her understanding of the possible consequences of police involvement. Still dramatic.

Do you think it implies she doesn’t know exactly what she is accused of?

I think it implies a neurotic individual, having a dramatic melt down. Fully aware of what they’re accused of and the implications had perhaps just dawned on her at that moment when the note was written. I imagine a sob fest, depressing music, bottle of wine, ugly crying into a pillow scenario personally. Not tears of genuine anguish for anyone except themselves.- all MOO of course.

After feeling ‘in control’ for so long this comes across as a ‘The walls are crashing down around me and I’m losing control’ moment when one has well and truly woken up and smelled the coffee!

 

[Tortoise]

She could have been speaking hypothetically. Fits with the non direct word “this” rather than “it” which would be A direct reference to an allegation of wrongdoing. I just don’t think the word “this” would Be used to describe whatever it is she has been accused of. it’s singular and inadequate to describe multiple allegations. She could be referring to each event together as one but I doubt it. I’m kind of picturing her picturing herself in front of a court going “I did this” which only then would be a direct reference to any allegations. Fitting with her understanding of the possible consequences of police involvement. Still dramatic.

Do you think it implies she doesn’t know exactly what she is accused of?

No, I think 'I did this' refers to her written admission, 'I killed them on purpose'.

This and it are exactly the same when someone doesn't want to write out again what they have just described, especially in the limited space of a post-it note.

 

[DianaWW]

I’ve found one write up from today so far

Doctor had 'no explanation' why baby suffered second collapse, Letby trial told

A DOCTOR had "no clear explanation" why a baby girl allegedly attacked by nurse Lucy Letby suffered a second significant collapse within…

www.wirralglobe.co.uk

 

[Sweeper2000]

No, I think 'I did this' refers to her written admission, 'I killed them on purpose'.

This and it are exactly the same when someone doesn't want to write out again what they have just described, especially in the limited space of a post-it note.

Fair enough I suppose. Any Thoughts on why she would include the words “on purpose“ ? And why if she spent So much time deceiving people she would leave that note around?

 

[Dotta]

And why if she spent So much time deceiving people she would leave that note around?

Maybe she is a "hoarder" kind of person?
Compulsion?

JMO

 

[Sweeper2000]

Any bones to pick with this character description?

“Fellow nurse Christopher Booth, who was on duty on both nightshifts, told Mr Myers that Letby had completed an overtime shift that week.

He said: "That was not unusual for her. She was very conscientious."

Mr Myers went on: "Was she someone willing to work extra or have shifts changed at short notice?"

"Yes," replied Mr Booth.

Mr Myers said: "Did you find her to be a hard worker?"

Mr Booth said: "Without doubt, yes."

Asked if Letby became upset as events involving babies continued, Mr Booth said: "Oh definitely. It was a harrowing time. We were all upset. Without doubt, Lucy as well."

Doctor had 'no explanation' why baby suffered second collapse, Letby trial told

A DOCTOR had "no clear explanation" why a baby girl allegedly attacked by nurse Lucy Letby suffered a second significant collapse within…

www.wirralglobe.co.uk

that word in bold suggests this individual knew what was normal for LL, it’s also fitting with all other accounts of her given. Including personal texts.

again the prosecution have not bought any strong evidence To suggest otherwise. Also fits with my reading of the note.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Maybe she is a "hoarder" kind of person?
Compulsion?

JMO

Maybe, fits with what the defence said that she does indeed hang on bits of paper and writings. Suggests attachment as a personality trait IMO.

still doesn’t explain why if she was a deceitful person and constantly putting on a act she would be attached to an incriminating note.

 

[Dotta]

Maybe, fits with what the defence said that she does indeed hang on bits of paper and writings. Suggests attachment as a personality trait IMO.

still doesn’t explain why if she was a deceitful person and constantly putting on a act she would be attached to an incriminating note.

This case is perplexing.
I feel for the Jury

And, regardless if Im biased or not, I would be absolutely appalled if an innocent person was to be found guilty.

But I have faith in experts, Jury and the Judge - and let them take as much time as they see fit.
So Justice can be served.

JMO

 

[ColourPurple]

These are mostly fair points. If the note and it’s contents was something she wanted to get off her chest it would imply guilt Though or unwanted feelings and thoughts. The only potential reference to feeling guilty and ashamed is the reference to her family.

If by "imply guilt" you mean imply that she felt guilty about something rather than implying that she was guilty of something then maybe , maybe not. She could be guilty and not actually feel guilt about what she did (especially if in her mind it was justified) If guilty, then she would have had to have kept the whole thing secret for over a year and maybe she just wanted to get that off her chest and say yes I killed them. Not necessarily because she felt guilt or remorse about doing ibut just because keeping it secret was killing her. We don't know if she is relgious or somebody who grew up going to confession but if so that's a possibility too. Either way, if guilty, if keeing it a secret was getting too much, she could hardly tell anybody so writing it down may have been the only option she had.

it really isn’t the kind of thing a guilty person trying to hide incriminating information would leave around though at all, it would be significant to that person to say the least most especially when she knows she is under suspicion.

We don't know that she did just leave it lying around. We just know that police found it. If she did deliberately keep it for some reason then it could have been deliberately hidden, tucked away somewhere.she thought it would never be found (I'm thinking of one murder case where the murderer hid a tiny memory card with incriminating pics on it,on top of a door frame but police found it) . The only reason I can think of for intentionally keeping it , if guilty, woudl be to read it or write on it every time she felt the need to. It looks like it may have some creases so it could have been screwed up and thrown somewhere, or put in a coat pocket with the intention of disposing of it and then forgotten about. She could have been drunk when she wrote it and then completely forgot about it.

the word “this” to me still isn’t a direct reference to any accusations, it’s dramatic and warm. “I did it” would be a direct and non dramatic way of addressing the accusations. “People are better off without me” would be a much more direct reference to an understanding of victims and of right and wrong in my opinion not “the world” again suggesting she thinks the world is a good place and she a bad thing in it. The world is a big general place to think one is victimising it entirely. Again just dramatics to me.

And yet to me they don't seem out of place or dramatic at all. Frankly if she IS guilty, then the world would be a better place without her in it, going round killing babies.

you do have to take the sentence of “wrong” with the following sentence of “police” in my opinion, suggestive of the collective understanding of right and wrong. Her words regarding “police forget slander discrimination“ etc to me suggests she thinks the investigation wouldn’t be happening if it wasn’t for those elements suggesting she sees herself as a victim in this situation Or one being treated unfairly. Suggestive she knows how to treat people correctly and without prejudice, again suggesting she knows the normal definition of right and wrong.

Apologies I forget who mentioned it but somebody pointed that rather than being part of a sentence with "police investigation", the word "forget " might actually be part of a message written in a vertical line , written after the comments about the police investigation etc
So that vertiiclaly it would read.
forget
everything
everyone
I also pondered whether the line "kill myself right now" above the word forget could be part of that vertical note too "Kill myself right now.forget everything, everyone."

 

[Tortoise]

Fair enough I suppose. Any Thoughts on why she would include the words “on purpose“ ? And why if she spent So much time deceiving people she would leave that note around?

I think she wrote the words 'on purpose' because she simply wanted to write down what she had done without ambiguity. These are two words which when used together only have one meaning. It's a reliable statement, she has taken ownership of what she says happened.

She was totally alone with her own thoughts, not responding to any pressure of questions and just started rambling and purging her mind, like some people do art to express themselves. IMO

We don't know how close to her arrest she wrote it, or where it was found. Could have been written the night before, found in the bin, in a bag waiting to be taken to the tip, put in the pocket of something she didn't wear again, covered over by some other paperwork, dropped behind the nightstand. Who knows.

 

[Sweeper2000]

This case is perplexing.
I feel for the Jury

And, regardless if Im biased or not, I would be absolutely appalled if an innocent person was to be found guilty.

But I have faith in experts, Jury and the Judge - and let them take as much time as they see fit.
So Justice can be served.

JMO

it is definitely that. I feel for everyone involved tbh, especially the families.

 

[Tortoise]

The Trial of Lucy Letby, Episode 12: Baby H, Part 1: "They were not able to explain why she had suffered a cardiac collapse."

www.mailplus.co.uk

In this episode, Caroline and Liz examine what happened to Baby H, a baby girl, who Lucy Letby allegedly tried to kill twice in 24 hours. In the early hours of September 26, 2015, Baby H collapsed and didn’t have a heartbeat for twenty-two minutes while staff battled to save her life. Jurors were told the doctors were so worried that they urged her parents to have her baptised in case she didn’t make it.